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Bart wrote:
KiwiRich wrote:
… The UB doesn't have any contradictions that I'm aware of, but your interpretation of that particular paragraph contradicts other parts of the book. For example: saying that same-sex couples can be effective parents contradicts the statement that children need both a mother and a father.
We already agreed that biological parents may (generally) be more effective in nurturing and rearing (their own) offspring (84:1.9). But there are (indeed) no contradictions in the book regarding the notion that two persons of the same sex can be effective (non-biological) parents and have a romantic relationship and a genuine friendship (169:2.4)..

And I don’t think that 84:1.9 implies that children need both a mother and a father. It just states that male-female partnerships are vastly superior in most ways to partnerships between either two men or two women ..
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84:1.9 Regardless of the antagonisms of these early pairs, notwithstanding the looseness of the association, the chances for survival were greatly improved by these male-female partnerships. A man and a woman, co-operating, even aside from family and offspring, are vastly superior in most ways to either two men or two women. This pairing of the sexes enhanced survival and was the very beginning of human society. The sex division of labor also made for comfort and increased happiness.


I assume you meant to refer to 160:2.4, not 169:2.4?

As for children needing both a mother and father, it doesn't get much clearer than this:

(531.4) 47:1.6 No ascending mortal can escape the experience of rearing children — their own or others — either on the material worlds or subsequently on the finaliter world or on Jerusem. Fathers must pass through this essential experience just as certainly as mothers. It is an unfortunate and mistaken notion of modern peoples on Urantia that child culture is largely the task of mothers. Children need fathers as well as mothers, and fathers need this parental experience as much as do mothers.

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Yes, we already agreed on that. A man and a woman, co-operating, even aside from family and offspring, are vastly superior in most ways to either two men or two women (84:1.9) and children need fathers as well as mothers (47:1.6). Nevertheless, as argued, TUB also states that effective parental relationships are possible between two persons of the same sex (160:2.4). And, obviously, even single parents can effectively raise children.

Children need fathers as well as mothers, but they are not completely lost with only one parent. And two parents of the same sex may be much better than one parent because personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds families together ..
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160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.


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@bart that quote is not talking about same sex parents. It is saying a genuine friendship between 2 persons of the same sex can be just as effective of a relationship as a parental relationship. 2 friends can have personal affection for each other just as two parents can.

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boomshuka wrote:
@bart that quote is not talking about same sex parents. It is saying a genuine friendship between 2 persons of the same sex can be just as effective of a relationship as a parental relationship. 2 friends can have personal affection for each other just as two parents can.
I don't agree. I think that quote (160:2.4) is definitely speaking about same-sex parents..


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Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.


But they are talking about a friendship in this last sentence. According to this sentence a genuine friendship is just as effective relationship as the relationship talked about at the beginning the paragraph. O:)

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I think the key to the paragraph is the word effective. The family (particularly the two parents) is said to be the most effective of all social groups. And such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex. The phrase effective relationship must refer here to the family bond, otherwise the whole passage wouldn’t make sense imo..


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A family is an effective social group but genuine friendship can be just as effective of a relationship or social group. "As is so abundantly illustrated by genuine friendships". We can't ignore the part about friendships that is spoken in the same sentence. It's all one thought. It gives context to the whole paragraph so that it is not so confusing.


The authors are talking about effective social groups. It would be like saying a Lions pride is the most effective social group in the jungle, but that such an effective social group can be a pack of wild dogs as demonstrated by a pride. "Such an effective" doesn't mean the two are equally the same. A parent is the most effective care-giver of a child but such an effective demonstration of care-giving can be demonstrated by the grandparent.

I understand where the confusion is with the word "effective". People use this way of talking quite a bit in the english world though. For example I could say "The most effective way for me to travel to Seattle would be to fly" but I could then continue on and say "....Well a bus would be just as an effective way for me to get to Seattle". It wouldn't be saying that the bus is the most effective means of transportation but it is just as effective as a plane because it gets me from point A to point B and thats the whole point. Even though a plane does the job more effeciently, the bus is still just as effective because it accomplishes the same goal. Its obviously not a matter of fact way of speaking. But the authors often don't use a matter of fact way of speaking. Its more of an attempt to convey the truth. In another part of the book the authors talk about how a man and women need each other.

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So, can you say in just one sentence what you think 160:2.4 basically means? I think it means that same-sex couples can be effective parents. (And possibly Rodan of Alexandria was gay.. :))


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:lol: Oh Bart....too funny!! Those Greeks knew their way around relationships back in the day!! Our society is so easily shocked by that which is really not so shocking and perhaps more universally human in the early or confused stages of many planetary epochs.

I wonder, for those of you who are friends with gay/lesbian/tg folk (as I am...friends that is 8) ), if the idea of gender bending has occurred to anyone else? Straights do the same thing of course. Each of us displays both masculine and feminine attributes/characteristics (well except raving homophobes who may just be deeper in the closet of denial) - but the gays I've known take it to a whole new level. There is often a more assertive and more demur partner in many gay couples as well as the usual bi-gender mix in most all couples. It almost seems as though we are discussing this as though this individualistic expression of self doesn't exist - men are men and women are women and never the twixt do they mix roles or attributes. This is a falsehood of sexism and stereotyping IMO.

I am convinced that ANY loving or friendly coupling can certainly aspire to high quality parenting and provide a superior childhood experience......most especially when contrasted with the dysfunctionality so many "straight" couples find themselves in today. I think, socially speaking, the loss of the extended family/tribe and the replacement of that social reality with isolated nuclear families has led to today's sorry state of affairs for the family unit in general and remains, along side male dominance, as the most important changes we need to face and fix for more progress - until women are equal with men and the family returns to its position as the most fundamental, even most important, unit of society, we suffer.

I'm glad we all agree at least that this issue is of minor interest to the authors and to us serious students as well. Interesting, yes. Crucial, no....except for the exaltation of all brothers and sisters and brother/sisters and sister/brothers into our respect, love, and individual relationship potentials.

Thanks Bart. Very funny indeed. :wink: :biggrin:


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Bart wrote:
So, can you say in just one sentence what you think 160:2.4 basically means? I think it means that same-sex couples can be effective parents. (And possibly Rodan of Alexandria was gay.. :))


I think it's saying that genuine friendships even between two people of the same sex can be just as effective of a social group as two parents.

On a side note I don't homosexuality even exists on the planets far into light and life. I think its one of things that has happened as the result of the Adamic default. If we all had perfect genetics I don't think there would be as much of a overlap between male and female nature as we have now. We evolved from plants and there is very little difference between a male and female plant, I think that this plant heritage is still in our genetic makeup and is the reason that we are also susceptible to parasitical disease. I think the Adamic uplift was meant to lift us up out of that lower biological level up towards a more animal like level.

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boomshuka wrote:
… I think it's saying that genuine friendships even between two people of the same sex can be just as effective of a social group as two parents.
No, that’s not what it says.. 160:2.4 states that same-sex couples can be effective parents. And the reason is that personal affection/devotion (between parents), which holds families together, abounds in any genuine friendship.


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I agree with Bart's interpretation. Friendship between individual of the same sex is very natural and normal. The revelators would not have mentioned it with emphasis if it was just about friendship.


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boomshuka wrote:
Quote:
Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.


Except this is all one sentence. They are talking about 2 people having a genuine friendship, the "as is" connects the whole sentence together.


Also the "most effective social group is the family....." So they start off talking about what's effective in a general sense before they point out the parents. It's that family relationship that they connect with friendship. Personal affection is what holds together genuine friends and families. There is nothing sexual about personal affection.

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YSMAEL wrote:
I agree with Bart's interpretation. Friendship between individual of the same sex is very natural and normal. The revelators would not have mentioned it with emphasis if it was just about friendship.

I understand it similarly, which for me isn't just from the paragraph itself but from the surrounding context.

Not more than several sentences later is the use of "friendship" again in the sense of life partners establishing a family together rather than regular platonic friendship:

"Of all social relations calculated to develop character, the most effective and ideal is the affectionate and understanding friendship of man and woman in the mutual embrace of intelligent wedlock."


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Bart, I agree with you that the Urantia book does not condemn marriage of the same sex, nor does it condone it for that matter, but that sentence, is NOT the justification.

The key word here , is PERSONAL AFFECTION
Quote:
160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.


Four different Sentences in this paragraph, look at them ALL, not just no.4

1 - Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups.
Communication is the basis for establishing a social group.

2 - The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents.
The social group that is called the FAMILY is the MOST EFFECTIVE ! That is, most effective amongst all Social Groups.

3 - Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations.
The whole quest of our existence is to gain the Spiritual , that is the aspect that matters most. (Spirit directs the mind which controls the matter.) Personal affection is what establishes that spiritual bond.

and the ONLY other time that the revelators mention "PERSONAL AFFECTION" is here:

Quote:
83:1.5 Primitive marriage was primarily industrial; and even in modern times it is often a social or business affair. Through the influence of the mixture of the Andite stock and as a result of the mores of advancing civilization, marriage is slowly becoming mutual, romantic, parental, poetical, affectionate, ethical, and even idealistic. Selection and so-called romantic love, however, were at a minimum in primitive mating. During early times husband and wife were not much together; they did not even eat together very often. But among the ancients, personal affectionwas not strongly linked to sex attraction; they became fond of one another largely because of living and working together.

IF THAT isn't rubbing it in our faces, I am not sure what is... :|

4 - Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.

Effective in relation to the "SPIRITUAL BOND" , You don't have to get married to gain that "SPIRITUAL BOND" , you can have it with a "GENUINE FRIEND"

Bart, to be honest, I once used that very paragraph defending why Gay People don't have to get SEXUAL with their relationships, it is entirely their decision and way of life to Like being with one another and even spend their lifetime together, but why involve the sexual with it ?! And at that point, the person who was defending their point of view simply had nothing to say...!
Because it simply is true.
Why can't gay people enjoy that special bond in the domains of Genuine Friendship?

I have a genuine friendship with a male friend, but we don't have sex, does that make me GAY ?

This passage told me, simply, Genuine friendships, are very effective to create a spiritual bond, ergo, a spiritual relationship; which as we know from another part of the book, that quadruples the spiritual growth potential.

Quote:
43:8.11 7. And then, climax all of these procedures of multisocialization with the concurrent enhancement of spiritual insight as it pertains to the augmentation of all phases of personal endowment through group spiritual association and morontia co-ordination. Intellectually, socially, and spiritually two moral creatures do not merely double their personal potentials of universe achievement by partnership technique; they more nearly quadruple their attainment and accomplishment possibilities.


So, all you those who are not married and might not get married, DON"T WORRY, you can still quadruple the potential through GENUINE FRIENDSHIP.

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Last edited by kicoverz on Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:11 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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