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Bart wrote:
Hi KiwiRich. TUB explicitely states that effective parents can be two persons of the same sex:
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160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.
So, effective parenthood is possible with two persons of the same sex, period; i.e., in genuine same-sex friendships, but possibly also in homosexual relationships..

Personally I've always read the passage the way you are Bart.

I realized you added bolding and italics to the 160:2.4 text for emphasis to make your point earlier, and now that's been carried through a number of replies, but just going back to the original formatting in the book is helpful here I think (all the quotes used in this discussion are missing it):

Quote:
Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.

The phrase "two parents" is emphasized with italics in the book. It's hard for me to read the next phrases "these material associations" and "such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex" as being about something other than parental life.


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Bart wrote:
KiwiRich wrote:
… Point taken - you meant that they are effective, not that they are as effective. But since the "same sex" sentence refers to friendship, I don't see any reference to homosexuality or same-sex couples in a parental role.
Hi KiwiRich. TUB explicitely states that effective parents can be two persons of the same sex:
Quote:
160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.
So, effective parenthood is possible with two persons of the same sex, period; i.e., in genuine same-sex friendships, but possibly also in homosexual relationships..


You're making connections that aren't there. Parenthood and family life are merely mentioned within the context of effective human communication. The paragraph is not about parenthood and family life, it's about human symbolic communication and the spiritual bonds of material associations. And the last sentence specifically states that it is talking about friendships.

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tas wrote:
Bart wrote:
Hi KiwiRich. TUB explicitely states that effective parents can be two persons of the same sex:
Quote:
160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.
So, effective parenthood is possible with two persons of the same sex, period; i.e., in genuine same-sex friendships, but possibly also in homosexual relationships..

Personally I've always read the passage the way you are Bart.

I realized you added bolding and italics to the 160:2.4 text for emphasis to make your point earlier, and now that's been carried through a number of replies, but just going back to the original formatting in the book is helpful here I think (all the quotes used in this discussion are missing it):

Quote:
Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.

The phrase "two parents" is emphasized with italics in the book. It's hard for me to read the next phrases "these material associations" and "such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex" as being about something other than parental life.


That's probably because you think the paragraph is about parenthood and family, and because you're not fully appreciating the importance of the last part of the last sentence.

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Hi All:

To me, this seems to be one of those “strain at gnats and swallow camels” problems which we here on Urantia so cheerfully consume like so many frosted flakes during our breakfast.

My opinion firmly remains that one’s sexual persuasion matters not one lick of difference in the big scheme of continuing universal evolution towards perfection. I suspect that after a few short standard universe standard years, our surviving selves will have moved on from this triviality and will be focusing on things which really matter.

I say, the reason this is not spelled out concisely in the UB is because it does not matter. The wording is clear enough to see that children need to be raised in a loving environment, this is key, not who is doing the loving.

The only drawback to a gay relationship is the temporary lack of physical ability to procreate and thus to obtain the essential experience of raising a child. But this is easily overcome by adoption or simply by waiting until the next existence where the Authors have made it painstakingly clear that this experience will be obtained.

Personally, I feel far worse for those unfortunates who have stunted their spiritual growth by harboring hate for those whose sexual persuasion differs from theirs. These individuals will suffer, in my opinion, a lengthy disadvantage, far longer and more damaging than those who, by chemical makeup or environment, chose to love those of their own sex during this short life in the flesh.


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alwilliams767 wrote:
My opinion firmly remains that one’s sexual persuasion matters not one lick of difference in the big scheme of continuing universal evolution towards perfection. I suspect that after a few short standard universe standard years, our surviving selves will have moved on from this triviality and will be focusing on things which really matter.


I agree, it's not important, and that's why it's not mentioned.

Quote:
I say, the reason this is not spelled out concisely in the UB is because it does not matter. The wording is clear enough to see that children need to be raised in a loving environment, this is key, not who is doing the loving.


I think you missed this part:
"Children need fathers as well as mothers, and fathers need this parental experience as much as do mothers."

Quote:
The only drawback to a gay relationship is the temporary lack of physical ability to procreate and thus to obtain the essential experience of raising a child. But this is easily overcome by adoption or simply by waiting until the next existence where the Authors have made it painstakingly clear that this experience will be obtained.


The need for a child to have both a father and a mother should trump the desire for a same-sex couple to obtain parental experience, in my opinion. In other words, heterosexual couples who want to adopt should be given priority.

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Personally, I feel far worse for those unfortunates who have stunted their spiritual growth by harboring hate for those whose sexual persuasion differs from theirs. These individuals will suffer, in my opinion, a lengthy disadvantage, far longer and more damaging than those who, by chemical makeup or environment, chose to love those of their own sex during this short life in the flesh.


Agreed, but is it a choice? I know several homosexuals, and they all say it's not a choice.

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Hi Rich:

I suspect that in the final analysis, all life decisions are choices.


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KiwiRich wrote:
…You're making connections that aren't there. Parenthood and family life are merely mentioned within the context of effective human communication. The paragraph is not about parenthood and family life, it's about human symbolic communication and the spiritual bonds of material associations. And the last sentence specifically states that it is talking about friendships.
No.. I think 160:2.4 is clearly about (effective) social groups. Symbolic communication is only mentioned once, as predetermining social group forming. It is stated that The most effective social group is the family, particularly the two parents. And such an effective relationship (parenthood) is also possible between two persons of the same sex ..
Quote:
160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.


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Bart wrote:
KiwiRich wrote:
…You're making connections that aren't there. Parenthood and family life are merely mentioned within the context of effective human communication. The paragraph is not about parenthood and family life, it's about human symbolic communication and the spiritual bonds of material associations. And the last sentence specifically states that it is talking about friendships.
No.. I think 160:2.4 is clearly about (effective) social groups. Symbolic communication is only mentioned once, as predetermining social group forming. It is stated that The most effective social group is the family, particularly the two parents. And such an effective relationship (parenthood) is also possible between two persons of the same sex ..
Quote:
160:2.4 Symbolic communication between human beings predetermines the bringing into existence of social groups. The most effective of all social groups is the family, more particularly the two parents. Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships.


It says "genuine friendships", not "parenthood". You're chopping and changing the paragraph to make it say what you want it to say.

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KiwiRich wrote:
… It says "genuine friendships", not "parenthood". You're chopping and changing the paragraph to make it say what you want it to say.
No.. 160:2.4 (as mentioned) is about effective social groups and relationships. The fact that effective parental relationships are (also) possible between two persons of the same sex, is (abundantly) illustrated by genuine same-sex friendships..


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Bart wrote:
KiwiRich wrote:
… It says "genuine friendships", not "parenthood". You're chopping and changing the paragraph to make it say what you want it to say.
No.. 160:2.4 (as mentioned) is about effective social groups and relationships. The fact that effective parental relationships are (also) possible between two persons of the same sex, is (abundantly) illustrated by genuine same-sex friendships..


You really mangled the paragraph there...and what you're saying doesn't even make sense. Two persons of the same sex cannot both be parents, and romantic unions are much more than a "genuine friendship". For some reason, you desperately want to lend UB support to same-sex couples who assume a parental role - a proposition that creates numerous contradictions with other parts of the book.

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hmm..
I think we must all contemplate the wisdom of the revelators in that they seldom attack or make accusations or judgments to any given sensitive matter, where strong emotional opinions may be involved, they don't pluck out any wrongness, they simply plant goodness, and let that goodness grow to automatically remove the wrongness within.
[homosexuality and the Islamic Faith are two examples]

IMHO

Ideally, it has to be heterosexual, Adam and eve are hetero-sexual, that is the basic PATTER to learn from ,they are the biological up-lifters and the VISIBLE example in which we were supposed to follow!

Heterosexuality does matter to our spiritual progress in that, as Kiwirich mentioned, it gives the children the "Father" experience to help us the better experience the love of the spiritual Father, and the MOTHER experience, to help us realize the "universal mother" spiritual relationship.

However, I believe the sentence Bart mentioned would be of great comfort to a real biological homosexual [Did not choose homosexuality but rather was born with it] and who truly desires to do the father's will, and to live the father's way, in that it provides hope and assurance, and at the very least, it does not CONDEMN.

What does it matter to the heterosexual if his brother in the flesh decided to be homosexual, would that abrogate the brotherhood of Man pact between them ?

bottom line, UB does not condemn, however, it does provide what is ideal.

Ideally, heterosexuality is the recommended way, but homosexuality is not dangerous to the soul growth, that is, it is not a road that ends in spiritual death.

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9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


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KiwiRich wrote:
… You really mangled the paragraph there...and what you're saying doesn't even make sense. Two persons of the same sex cannot both be parents, and romantic unions are much more than a "genuine friendship". For some reason, you desperately want to lend UB support to same-sex couples who assume a parental role – a proposition that creates numerous contradictions with other parts of the book.
What "numerous contradictions in the book" do you mean..?


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Bart wrote:
KiwiRich wrote:
… You really mangled the paragraph there...and what you're saying doesn't even make sense. Two persons of the same sex cannot both be parents, and romantic unions are much more than a "genuine friendship". For some reason, you desperately want to lend UB support to same-sex couples who assume a parental role – a proposition that creates numerous contradictions with other parts of the book.
What "numerous contradictions in the book" do you mean..?


The UB doesn't have any contradictions that I'm aware of, but your interpretation of that particular paragraph contradicts other parts of the book. For example: saying that same-sex couples can be effective parents contradicts the statement that children need both a mother and a father.

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KiwiRich wrote:
… The UB doesn't have any contradictions that I'm aware of, but your interpretation of that particular paragraph contradicts other parts of the book. For example: saying that same-sex couples can be effective parents contradicts the statement that children need both a mother and a father.
We already agreed that biological parents may (generally) be more effective in nurturing and rearing (their own) offspring (84:1.9). But there are (indeed) no contradictions in the book regarding the notion that two persons of the same sex can be effective (non-biological) parents and have a romantic relationship and a genuine friendship (169:2.4)..

And I don’t think that 84:1.9 implies that children need both a mother and a father. It just states that male-female partnerships are vastly superior in most ways to partnerships between either two men or two women ..
Quote:
84:1.9 Regardless of the antagonisms of these early pairs, notwithstanding the looseness of the association, the chances for survival were greatly improved by these male-female partnerships. A man and a woman, co-operating, even aside from family and offspring, are vastly superior in most ways to either two men or two women. This pairing of the sexes enhanced survival and was the very beginning of human society. The sex division of labor also made for comfort and increased happiness.


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I have yet to read anything in TUB that even talks about homosexuality. So I guess you just have to come to your own conclusions.
Quote:
160:2.4 Personal affection is the spiritual bond which holds together these material associations. Such an effective relationship is also possible between two persons of the same sex, as is so abundantly illustrated in the devotions of genuine friendships


This paragraph is talking about friendships. You can have personal affection for friends.

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