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Hi BigAl,

As I agreed earlier, all may not be safe and well with our (western) governments and corporate powers, and our democracy may even be at risk. But (although there obviously are criminal bankers and corrupt politicians) all takes place within the limits of relatively normal national and international politics and financial systems.

I don’t think there is any real reason to suspect that a secret elite (which according to Foster Gamble is planning to dominate the world and kill most of us in the process) is behind anything. Such fear mongering places the responsibility for what is happening outside ourselves. Believing conspiracy theories like Thrive keeps society in a state of fear, apathy and hatred, away from truth and reality and real solutions to real problems.

So I agree with you that "the human race has a lot of personal transformation still to do". That is also what The Urantia Book seems to be referring to e.g. here:
Quote:
132:1.3 Unless the moral insight and the spiritual attainment of mankind are proportionately augmented, the unlimited advancement of a purely materialistic culture may eventually become a menace to civilization. A purely materialistic science harbors within itself the potential seed of the destruction of all scientific striving, for this very attitude presages the ultimate collapse of a civilization which has abandoned its sense of moral values and has repudiated its spiritual goal of attainment.
But Foster Gamble (Thrive) doesn’t state that our materialistic culture is currently threatening civilization. He claims that an evil elite is threatening civilization, which is something completely different..


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Bart, it is clear that you don't believe in a financial elite that has influence in the world. And that is fine; it's your prerogative. Reasonable people can disagree.

But to comment on a couple of things you have said:

1) Foster Gamble's motive is not to try to make money off of his video. He came from a wealthy family and doesn't need anybody else's money. I think it would be more accurate to say he has some ideas that he wants to share and has expended significant amounts of his own money to do so. In this way he is no different than thousands of other well-meaning political and religious activists, including the founders of the Urantia website we are now debating on.

2) Is it trying to create Fear? I don't think so. I would argue his goal is to educate and empower us. Yes, learning that there are bad things in the world (be they criminals, terrorists, or even wild animals) can be scary, but it is knowledge of how those bad things act that allows us to be safe, take precautions, and lessen their impact. And it is hard to solve problems if you don't understand their root causes.


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https://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/tag/foster-gamble/


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YSMAEL wrote:
Yoder wrote:
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What organizations on earth today would you trust to implement it properly?


None. I would like to see the leaders of nations to come together and proposed the creation of a United Nations of Urantia on the same pattern like the creation of the United States of America but on a global scale.




I mention that the United Nations, "out of the pattern of the United States", has been identified as ample precedent for a unified Global-Federation, capable of maintaining the guidelines of a peaceful society amongst all nations. The Urantia Paper 134, which includes Jesus' synopsis that he delivered to Cymboyton's island for religious studies, is also a foundational precedent for the Global-Federation.

We have observed in the last fifty years, and for many complicated reasons, that the U.S. Constitutional Government has mandated (affirmative Action, planned Parenthood, et C.) a variety of social services and then either created specific institutions according to the mandate, or else used federal sponsorship to pay corporations in order to fulfill these perceived needs. The divestment of American Corporations of its manufacturing to foreign entities has resulted in parcel, the divestment of its own form of rulership. We now witness the increasing push of Global Corporation to legitimate its own social order as a form of governance.

In the Western Democracy, it was commonly believed that (according to Immanuel Kant among others), "the State should be kept separate from the Church, in its own functioning and administration". As such, it is our task to properly qualify the difference between "actual governance" versus all other appearances of litigation, edict, contract, or any other form of false documentation which impinges upon but does not constitute HUMAN CHOICE.

In the 14th Century, John of Arc had likewise made the distinction between "the Church Divine" and "the Church Mundane" shortly before he became a martyr. We may commonly understand that it is the task of "the Church Mundane" to have a fellowship, to aide in the human function of "socialisation", but to understand in the Fifth Epoch that Religion per SE, or "the Church Divine" involves God's relationship to the individual, rather than that of the group.


To assume that there are no human institutions or governmental bodies upon which the Global Government should be modelled is as false as the idea that Revelation is entirely novel, whereas in fact personal revelation is according the the experiencial acquirements of human perception, and whereas epochal revelation is according to "God's Providence", that, on this world, primarily passes through the Abrahamic Tradition.


There are many conventions, the Brandenberg, the Bretton Woods, and also including various internet forums, which are both altruistic and broad-seeing enough to have "the best interests of every human individual" encompassed within the scope of their own chartres.


When a governance body comes into being, and such a body could be ratified by Urantians very soon, it may incorporate the best traditions from the historical governments but in appearance would be quite different. "The President's Cabinet" of American Heritage has now grown beyond its original definitions and includes advisory bodies from the World Health Organisation, the International Monetary Fun, in addition to "Federal Reserve" (the treasury). New Advisors have been defined, then appointed or adopted, according to the needs of Society, not just the Executive Branch of the Federal U.S..


Whether this is an implanted goal or an actual need rising out of a younger generation, we have the idea that "the People demand" a Globally Federated type of world-legislative body which is capable of sorting out the idiosyncrisies and discrepencies concerning the law as it is applied in one territory or the next. It is widely recognised that the "profits derived of speculation" do not constitute a legitimate Interest-Income, and that to move production to a more liberal nation simply because of profit margins is both exploitative and unfair to the less experienced populations in those territories. But the "Third World Nations" have caught up to pace very quickly, and the "First World Nations" are at risk of lagging behind, and therefore it is not at all improbable that the next strivings towards a unified world governance should come from Nations such as Brazil, Zimbabwe, or Indya.

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Show me a government that follows the non-aggression principle, and I'll show you a one-world government that will work just fine.

EDIT: Kelly, I revel in this this that you said: something which impinges upon human choice, such as a legislative edict, does not necessarily constitute human choice. Bingo.


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Yoder777 wrote:
Is the Urantia Book's hope for a benign one world government antithetical to the possibility that before this new world comes, there will be a false world government in line with the devil?

I don't believe that we should automatically regard everyone who calls for a one world government as a man of peace.



I first point out that you Yoder777 have inserted personal interpretation by describing "one world government" as "benign". If you see that Jesus accepted the presence of military, and statements in Urantia book "a team of 20 well-armed men can effectively restrain a mob", even those "the watchword is progress", it is difficult to regard political organisations as benign. Perhaps it is the admonitions Jesus paid to Apostle Simon as well as refusal to become one of Zealots that you use such descriptive term.


After much consideration, and while reading Urantia Book, I have decided that a world government at this point in history is practicable and desirable. I make identification as "world-citizen" while seeking to uphold national and local mores and laws. I see that you have accurately assessed fear-dominated viewpoints of alternative "world government" scenarios such as David Icke has promulgated.

Urantia Book was forged during while the League of Nations was in force; in effect, we may say that the rudiments of a Global Federation were working even during that time. We have witnessed the undulation of the balance of federal governmental power-structures, and the numerous failures that American Instutions have inflicted upon the world-stage in trying to accelerate these trends, to impose its culture onto other groups.


Despite these crimes and failures on part of American Culture, there is something universal about our history, and accessible with the english syntax. But if it is true that America has the duty of "Manifest Destiny", we must admit our nation's historical crimes and seek to uphold the better values of the cultures we seek to assimilate. America cannot actually be used as an escape from a people's tradition but remain as a "Melting Pot", due to its fictitious origins and colonial(adoptive/transplantive) roots.

It is the novelty or newness of "world-government" which is false. In fact, every King or Empire has aspired to a similar goal. America, in recognising each State's ability to govern its people separately, has had ample precedent towards the accomodation and mitigation of a world government, above and beyond other historical Republics. But we must be vigilent perhaps even wary against the delicate balance of federal structures and their ability to enforce laws over subcultures. There is some overlap of the rights of a planet-government and the rights of an individual human citizen. We cannot see such effective enforcement unless those chosen to positions of authority are willing to impose perscribed legal penalties/sanctions upon themselves, before imposing same upon other citizens or subjects.

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81:5.7 Liberty subject to group regulation is the legitimate goal of social evolution. Liberty without restrictions is the vain and fanciful dream of unstable and flighty human minds.

84:8.6 Man has well earned some of his present-day joys and pleasures. But look you well to the goal of destiny! Pleasures are indeed suicidal if they succeed in destroying property, which has become the institution of self-maintenance; and self-gratifications have indeed cost a fatal price if they bring about the collapse of marriage, the decadence of family life, and the destruction of the home—man's supreme evolutionary acquirement and civilization's only hope of survival.

72:9.8 These people recognize that, when fifty per cent of a nation is inferior or defective and possesses the ballot, such a nation is doomed. They believe the dominance of mediocrity spells the downfall of any nation.


It seems like some (a lot) in this world believe "the dominance of mediocrity" is to be rewarded. That it's a goal to be aspired to. I mean (for example), why would anyone think it's the thing to do, to support the idea, that it's acceptable for a 65 year old man with female breasts, his penis intact and no doubt many perverse and disturbing sexual inclinations to use the bathroom with little girls? And then see those who oppose this, shortsightedly enact legislation which will only cast the issue they do not desire in stone by the courts! All due to the fact that the Constitution is at best vague, full of holes, preliminary, and mediocre in it's elementary state of evolution.

True world government is a long way off.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
True world government is a long way off.


Yes, I agree. And not till the world can subscribe to this.


70:12.5 Urantia mortals are entitled to liberty; they should create their systems of government; they should adopt their constitutions or other charters of civil authority and administrative procedure. And having done this, they should select their most competent and worthy fellows as chief executives. For representatives in the legislative branch they should elect only those who are qualified intellectually and morally to fulfill such sacred responsibilities. As judges of their high and supreme tribunals only those who are endowed with natural ability and who have been made wise by replete experience should be chosen.

70:12.6 If men would maintain their freedom, they must, after having chosen their charter of liberty, provide for its wise, intelligent, and fearless interpretation to the end that there may be prevented:

1. Usurpation of unwarranted power by either the executive or legislative branches.
2. Machinations of ignorant and superstitious agitators.
3. Retardation of scientific progress.
4. Stalemate of the dominance of mediocrity.
5. Domination by vicious minorities.
6. Control by ambitious and clever would-be dictators.
7. Disastrous disruption of panics.
8. Exploitation by the unscrupulous.
9. Taxation enslavement of the citizenry by the state.
10. Failure of social and economic fairness.
11. Union of church and state.
12. Loss of personal liberty.

70:12.19 These are the purposes and aims of constitutional tribunals acting as governors upon the engines of representative government on an evolutionary world.


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Yes

And here's where the rubber hits the road:

71:2.19 Intelligent and trained representation. The survival of democracy is dependent on successful representative government; and that is conditioned upon the practice of electing to public offices only those individuals who are technically trained, intellectually competent, socially loyal, and morally fit. Only by such provisions can government of the people, by the people, and for the people be preserved.


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"technically trained, intellectually competent, socially loyal, and morally fit"

Sorry, we are zero for four. Seems like the populace considers these qualities a disqualification for elected office. :(


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You got that right! And let's not forget this:

(71:3.10) The ideals of statehood must be attained by evolution, by the slow growth of civic consciousness, the recognition of the obligation and privilege of social service. At first men assume the burdens of government as a duty, following the end of the administration of political spoilsmen, but later on they seek such ministry as a privilege, as the greatest honor. The status of any level of civilization is faithfully portrayed by the caliber of its citizens who volunteer to accept the responsibilities of statehood.

(76:6.4) It is the people who make a civilization; civilization does not make the people.


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Yoder777 wrote:
YSMAEL wrote:
A world government that may arise at this point in time will only be a good one, one that respects human rights, one that will serve the good for majority, one that will solve the increasingly global problems.


How can you be so sure of this? Of course, an evil world government would come in the name of good. Even Satan is an angel of light. The evils of Hitler and Stalin were not that long ago.


I am not so sure about this " will be a good one ".

Check this link, Depopulation.

bogdan


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