An open forum for general discussions of a spiritual nature where guests and readers entertain the teachings of The Urantia Book.
Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:28 am +0000
kiwi2 wrote:… How did you get Essene Passover at 5 April?
Hi Kiwi. You said Essene Passover was on a Wednesday, so I simply took the first Wednesday before April 8, 30 AD (the date of passover in TUB). But you’re right, March 29 would also be a Wednesday and it would be exactly 50 days before the date of Jesus’ ascension in TUB (May 18). Nevertheless (as you agree) this is not supported by TUB..
My understanding is that Pentecost was when the Essenes gathered once a year to renew their covenant, and they didn't observe the sacrificial rituals of Passover. So I don't see it's a problem that the Essene Passover isn't mentioned in the UB. Passover was according to the Pharisee calendar (they controlled the temple), and Pentecost in AD30 was according to the Essene calendar (if they were the bulk of the converts of that day).
I really struggle with the theory (or theories) that there is a gap between Papers 193 and 194, or early in 194. This to me compromises the reliability of the UB. And to use the bible as the authoritative basis seems strange to me too. On any other point where the UB and the bible differ, I'd put my money on the UB. Anyway, we should remember that neither the bible nor the UB say that the day of Pentecost was 50 days after the Passover.
Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:51 am +0000
kiwi2 wrote:... My understanding is that Pentecost was when the Essenes gathered once a year to renew their covenant, and they didn't observe the sacrificial rituals of Passover. So I don't see it's a problem that the Essene Passover isn't mentioned in the UB. Passover was according to the Pharisee calendar (they controlled the temple), and Pentecost in AD30 was according to the Essene calendar (if they were the bulk of the converts of that day). ...
Hi Kiwi - I suppose it’s possible.. But why would the revelators refer to Pharisee/Sadducee Passover to define the date of Jesus’ death (April 7) and subsequently refer to Essene Pentacost to define the date of the bestowal of the spirit of truth (thereby placing Pentacost at May 18; the same day as Jesus’ ascension; 40 days after Pharisee Passover)? It doesn’t make sense to me..
And according to Wikipedia, the Essenes were a sect of (Second Temple) Judaism that entertained messianic as well as mystic beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
). TUB doesn’t exactly promote mysticism ..
99:5.2 Always keep in mind: True religion is to know God as your Father and man as your brother. Religion is not a slavish belief in threats of punishment or magical promises of future mystical rewards.
100:5.8 There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.
100:5.9 The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.
100:5.10 The more healthful attitude of spiritual meditation is to be found in reflective worship and in the prayer of thanksgiving. The direct communion with one’s Thought Adjuster, such as occurred in the later years of Jesus’ life in the flesh, should not be confused with these so-called mystical experiences. The factors which contribute to the initiation of mystic communion are indicative of the danger of such psychic states. The mystic status is favored by such things as: physical fatigue, fasting, psychic dissociation, profound aesthetic experiences, vivid sex impulses, fear, anxiety, rage, and wild dancing. Much of the material arising as a result of such preliminary preparation has its origin in the subconscious mind.
Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:13 pm +0000
Kiwi TUB goes through the Bible chapter by chapter. Why would it need to restate an obvious biblical fact? The only reason readers want to see 194 and 193 as the same day is that on 193 a gathering begins at 12 and on 194 the Spirit of Truth arrives at 1. That is a reader error not a TUB error. The books job is not to reveal just facts its job is to reveal truth. If something is already considered fact then it would not really be a revelation.
Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:59 pm +0000
Thanks for your post, Bart. Yeah I agree that it's only really a possibility. But to me that's better than what other people are suggesting, which are mental gymnastics to explain how the UB isn't actually saying what it seems to be saying.
boom wrote:Kiwi TUB goes through the Bible chapter by chapter. Why would it need to restate an obvious biblical fact? The only reason readers want to see 194 and 193 as the same day is that on 193 a gathering begins at 12 and on 194 the Spirit of Truth arrives at 1. That is a reader error not a TUB error. The books job is not to reveal just facts its job is to reveal truth. If something is already considered fact then it would not really be a revelation.
I don't agree with any of what you are saying here, boom. 1. The bible doesn't say it's 50 days, so it's not an obvious fact. And I think there are some other indications in the bible that they happened on the same day. 2. That is not the only reason readers 'want' to see the papers as the same day - there are lots of other aspects of continuity. 3. There are lots of facts in the bible (and elsewhere - what's special about the bible, after all?) that are also in the UB.
Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:42 am +0000
@ Kiwi there is a lot special about the bible. TUB quotes and references the bible almost the whole way through. There are a ton of stories in the Bible which are written in the same basic way in TUB. The bible represents a lot of the previous highest concepts about truth and God. The Bible also contains within it in fragmentary form the first 3 epochal revelations to man and a little of the 4th. The fact is the bible got a lot of stories right. TUB is building off those revelations. Also Pentecost as 50 days is a biblical fact if you spent a few minutes researching it you would see this. The word Pentecost even literally means 50. The Jewish festival in the bible even ends at the exact same time as in TUB, the two stories are parallel to each other. In the bible Pentecost also happens to begin on this Jewish festival. The authors if TUB are not asking for mental gymnastics they are asking you to see the obvious.
193 and 194 clearly parallel the stories in the bible. The stories are even written out in the same way. The authors do this a lot.
Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:20 am +0000
The Bible is very clear about the ascension of Jesus occurring 40 days after his resurrection, but apparently nothing in the Bible indicates that the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth occurred either 40 or 50 days after the resurrection. TUB links Jesus’ resurrection to Jewish Passover. But apparently only in Christian tradition Pentecost became a feast commemorating "the descent of the holy ghost" ..
The Ascension of Jesus
(anglicized from the Vulgate Latin Acts 1:9-11 section title: Ascensio Iesu) is the Christian teaching found in the New Testament that the resurrected Jesus was taken up to heaven in his resurrected body, in the presence of eleven of his apostles, occurring 40 days after the resurrection
. In the biblical narrative, an angel tells the watching disciples that Jesus' second coming will take place in the same manner as his ascension.
(Ancient Greek: Πεντηκοστή [ἡμέρα], Pentēkostē [hēmera], "the fiftieth [day]
") is the Greek name for the Feast of Weeks, a prominent feast in the calendar of ancient Israel celebrating the giving of the Law on Sinai. This feast is still celebrated in Judaism as Shavuot.
Later, in the Christian liturgical year, it became a feast commemorating the descent of the Holy Spirit
upon the Apostles and other followers of Jesus Christ, (120 in all) as described in the Acts of the Apostles 2:1–31. For this reason, Pentecost is sometimes described by some Christians today as the "Birthday of the Church."
The Talmud refers to Shavuot as Atzeret (Hebrew: עצרת, literally, "refraining" or "holding back"), referring to the prohibition against work on this holiday and to the conclusion of the holiday and season of Passover. Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after Passover
, Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost.(πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").
[…]The biblical narrative of Pentecost
is given in the second chapter of the Book of Acts. Present were about one hundred twenty followers of Christ (Acts 1:15), including his core group of twelve Disciples (Acts 1:13, 26), his mother Mary and various other women disciples (Acts 1:14). Their reception of Baptism in the Holy Spirit in the Upper Room is recounted in Acts 2:1–6:
Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:35 pm +0000
There is another way to look at this. TUB is not a revelation of facts, or already known facts. Its a revelation of truth. Its job is not to reveal already known facts, its job is to reveal truth. That is why its written the way it is written. If you are looking for a revelation of fact then all you will see is error.
Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:33 am +0000
'' There is another way to look at this. TUB is not a revelation of facts, or already known facts. Its a revelation of truth. Its job is not to reveal already known facts, its job is to reveal truth. That is why its written the way it is written. If you are looking for a revelation of fact then all you will see is error.''
I Disagree Brother Boom
The UB IS A NEW Revelation OF And About
NEW FACTS And NEW TRUTHS
Many Previously Unknown To Mankind on Urantia !
Thats WHY Its Called The FER
The Fifth Epochal Revelation
But Yes It Restates Many Already Known Facts and Truths Too
Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:19 am +0000
It does reveal new facts, but I don't believe that is its main purpose. Also Pentecost as 50 days would hardly be a new fact.
Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:15 pm +0000
Here’s a different idea:
According to the Bible, the descent of the holy spirit (at Jewish Pentecost) took place 10 days after Jesus’ ascension and 40 days after his resurrection, which occurred 3 days after his death (at Jewish Passover). So, in the biblical account Pentecost would be 43 days (not 50 days) after Passover. This is compatible with the apostles "40 days of hiding" stated in TUB, but the problem remains of Pentecost needing to be 50 days after Passover..
Now, Passover is a seven day
Jewish holiday or festival, starting and ending with a so-called high Sabbath. The last high Sabbath is the day of Passover and lamb sacrificing. But the 50 day count to Pentecost starts from the first
high Sabbath, which would be 7 days earlier. (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roo ... ened_Bread
So, if Passover was at Saturday April 8 (30 AD), then the first High Sabbath of Passover was at Saturday April 1 (30 AD). Pentecost would then be 50 days later at May 21 (not May 28). I think this is compatible with both the Bible and TUB..
Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:15 am +0000
Hi Bart, I'm pretty sure the Week of Unleavened Bread always followed Passover, not led up to it.
Hi boom, I'm surprised at the way you talk about the bible, and not sure what to make of it. I don't see the authors of the UB giving the bible the high standing (on facts) that you do.
But if you want to follow that angle, consider the other two accounts of the ascension in the bible:
Mark 16:19-20 wrote:After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Luke 24:51-53 wrote:While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
To me these read as if the activities commonly associated with Pentecost (preaching, having great joy, praising God at the temple, etc.) occurred very soon after ascension - in fact there is no gap indicated at all.
Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:49 am +0000
Sometimes in the book there is an omission of certain facts. It certainly makes the book harder to read, but that doesn't mean the authors are errored. They just make us work to figure it out sometimes. In this case they are making us work to see the truth that flows through these events.
Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:20 am +0000
kiwi2 wrote:Hi Bart, I'm pretty sure the Week of Unleavened Bread always followed Passover, not led up to it. …
Hi Kiwi, I agree. The first day of the 7 or 8 day festival of unleavened bread must be the day of the seder/lamb meal at April 8 (30 AD). Thus, the Bible implies that Pentecost was 40 days post Resurrection; approximately 40 (or 43) days after Passover (not 49 or 50 days).
There appears to be a lot of confusion about these dates in the Bible (some related to uncertainty about the year of Jesus' death; e.g., Passover in 31 AD would be on a Wednesday, not a Saturday). The traditional Christian celebration of Pentecost 50 days after Passover and 10 days after Ascension is just Christian tradition. The Bible states that Pentecost was 40 days after Resurrection, and Ascension and Pentecost were on the same day. Also, according to the Bible, the word Passover may refer to the whole 7 or 8 day festival of Unleavened Bread (Ez 45:21; Lk 22:1).
It seems the revelators elected not to solve this problem for us. Nevertheless, TUB may contain hints to a solution. The 40 day hiding of the apostles until Pentecost might refer to a period of 40 days after the festival of unleavened bread (Passover), during which the apostles stayed in the 'Upper Room' (Acts 1:12-14)..
Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:24 pm +0000
There seems to be a reason the authors challenge us like this. I liken it to teaching. A teacher will give her students just enough information so that when they go do their homework they can figure out the answers on their own and feel a sense of accomplishment for having solved all the riddles. The student may question the teacher for not just giving them the answer sheet, but that student ends up appreciating the challenge he/she was presented with in having to figure it out on their own.
Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:44 am +0000
Hi Bart, yep, cool, I see what you're saying now.
Hi boom, it's fair enough that you believe the authors deliberately put (or omit) things in order to make us look deeper, but applying that idea to this issue isn't really helping the discussion much. It doesn't support your view (that the Spirit of Truth came 50 days after Passover).
I've just been through the preceding Papers again, ie the ones with the morontia appearances of Jesus. It is striking how detailed the UB is on chronology. Every time the narrative moves to a new day, the day of the week and the date are given. And then I'm expected to believe that there is a gap of 10 days that the authors deliberately omitted to mention?
Anyway, peace all. I appreciate your contributions to discussion. This issue is important to me. We are in the early stages of the readership of the book, and we have an opportunity now to look into these things before it becomes more well-known. One of the criticisms of the book will be why it appears to put the coming of the Spirit at 40 days after Passover. It is good to be honest about what we think the book actually says, and it's good to look into all historical possibilities for explaining it.
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