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Hi all,

For a long time I've been wrestling with the Pentecost dating issue in the UB. It is dated in the UB at 40 days after Passover, on the same day as the Ascension of Jesus. This is in conflict with the traditional Jewish observance of Pentecost 50 days after Passover (and 10 days after the Ascension). Some UB readers have put articles online explaining it in terms of missing text, but these don't ring true for me. I think it's a straight forward passage, dating it at 40 days after Passover. For me the UB has stood up to all other claimed inconsistencies and errors, except for this one.

So I looked into it. I soon found that there is evidence that the early church celebrated Ascension and Pentecost on the same day. And early church fathers (Tertullian and Eusebius) independently refer to Ascension and Pentecost as occuring on the same day. I feel this is good evidence that the two things happened on the same day (I also think there are hints in the bible but that's not as important here). But, still, the UB says it was the day of Pentecost. How could this be? The UB even confirms in an earlier paper that Pentecost was seven weeks after Passover.

Then I came across the Essene Jews. They are mentioned a few times in the UB, but not many (these are interesting if you want to look). There are articles online about their similarities with the early church (having all things in common, baptism, laying on of hands for healing, etc.), but more importantly, about how the thousands of converts at Pentecost were likely from the Essene group. They didn't follow the Temple rituals as the Pharisees and Sadducees did, but gathered annually in Jerusalem at Pentecost. And they had a different calendar! Their calendar was such that the first day of their year (1 Nisan) was always a Wednesday. And Passover being 15 Nisan was therefore also a Wednesday. Now on the one hand I've read that they might have counted their 50 days from a week (or more) after Passover, which would put it too late for the UB account. But on the other hand its worth recognising that if they counted it from Passover, it would have been on a Thursday, as the UB says.

Thoughts, ideas and criticisms please. I'm keen to fill in some of the gaps. Or am I heading down the wrong track entirely?

kiwi


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Hmm.. It might somehow be a typographical error in 194:1.1; forty days should be forty and nine days, which would be consistent with seven weeks (not 50 days) in 125:1.5..


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Kiwi Chris Halvorson did a topical study on this subject and clears it up nicely. I will get you a link. It's on his site perfectinghorizons.org

Edit here it is: http://www.perfectinghorizons.org/QandA/pentpuzl.pdf

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boomshuka wrote:
Kiwi Chris Halvorson did a topical study on this subject and clears it up nicely. I will get you a link. It's on his site perfectinghorizons.org

Edit here it is: http://www.perfectinghorizons.org/QandA/pentpuzl.pdf


Thank you, this is a very important finding and I will amend the note at 194:1.1 in my edition accordingly.

Although there is an error in Chris Halvorson's explanation (in the second paragraph where he claims there is a gap between end of Paper 193 and beginning of Paper 194), the third paragraph of his explanation is correct.

The beginning of Paper 194 follows _immediately_ after the end of Paper 193 --- this is obvious (reference to prayer, etc). However, Section 1 of Paper 194 is separated from Section 0 by a gap of 10 days, so Chris Halvorson's explanation is essentially accurate. I will include it in my edition now. Thanks again for highlighting this.

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I'd like to mention that there is a huge amount of important history that is now being found in regard to the early church days and even of the doings The Master's brother James. Remember that in one resurrection appearance Jesus pulled James aside and gave him detailed instructions.

The detail in, for example, the book "Just James" and others with "Brother of Jesus" in the title is simply amazing. James lived a very intense life and was an immensely devoted Essene, if I remember correctly. He even entered the Jewish "Holy of Holies", something he would have surely been killed for attempting if he was not seen by many people as a man of God.


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boomshuka wrote:
Kiwi Chris Halvorson did a topical study on this subject and clears it up nicely. I will get you a link. It's on his site perfectinghorizons.org

Edit here it is: http://www.perfectinghorizons.org/QandA/pentpuzl.pdf


Thanks for the link, boom. Chris is saying that the apostles were only in hiding from when they went to Galilee, which was April 18, which would work out perfectly. But the UB says in 192:0.1 that by the time they left for Galilee, the Jewish leaders had quieted down considerably. And it says that this was Jesus appeared only to kingdom believers and because the apostles were in hiding. So the UB is clearly saying that the apostles were in hiding those first days also.

I also have major issue with the claim that Paper 193 doesn't flow directly onto Paper 194. The scene is identical (people, place, purpose, etc.), and the times of day follow on naturally. There is no indication that it is a different day.

A bit earlier in Paper 193 it also says that it was a meeting the like of which had never before occurred on this world, and that this part of the meeting lasted not quite an hour. We don't hear anything about the rest of the meeting - unless of course it was what is described in Paper 194.

There are lots of other things. We know that the early church fathers referred to ascension and pentecost as occurring on the same day and that the early church celebrated them on the same day. There is no mention (in the UB or the bible) of the jewish observance of pentecost at the temple, even though the apostles went to the temple on that day (the UB even says that the apostles continued with the essential ceremonial requirements even for some time afterward). The accounts of the ascension in Mark and Luke in the bible seem to follow directly to pentecost with no intervening gap. I could go on.

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I have heard Chris explain this in more detail in an audio I will look for that and perhaps that will make it slightly more clear.

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I know Chris explains the Pentecost issue in this broadcast. He also explains why the beginning of 194 is not the same day as what is happening on paper 193 he explains this at about the 1:19:00 mark and it continues on from there to about 1:28:00 or so I believe. I just did a quick look so it may start a little bit earlier than that.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/symmetryof ... ife-part-3

He explains that the revelators don't repeat what is properly depicted in the bible, they expect us to know that. They are only clearing up what is wrong. So 193 and 194 parallels Acts in the bible. What is happening at the end of 193 is that Peter is beginning a long conference. So 193 relates to 194 in that its the same sort of group in the same place praying, but in the book of Acts they explain that this is along group prayer session. I think he mentions its like an 10 day group thing. So that 1 o'clock is over a week later but its the same event. He explains Passover was April 8th and Pentecost is the 50th day after Passover "may 28".

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boomshuka wrote:
I know Chris explains the Pentecost issue in this broadcast. He also explains why the beginning of 194 is not the same day as what is happening on paper 193 he explains this at about the 1:19:00 mark and it continues on from there to about 1:28:00 or so I believe. I just did a quick look so it may start a little bit earlier than that.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/symmetryof ... ife-part-3

He explains that the revelators don't repeat what is properly depicted in the bible, they expect us to know that. They are only clearing up what is wrong. So 193 and 194 parallels Acts in the bible. What is happening at the end of 193 is that Peter is beginning a long conference. So 193 relates to 194 in that its the same sort of group in the same place praying, but in the book of Acts they explain that this is along group prayer session. I think he mentions its like an 10 day group thing. So that 1 o'clock is over a week later but its the same event. He explains Passover was April 8th and Pentecost is the 50th day after Passover "may 28".

Hi boom, I've just listened to that section of the audio (including the bit about the 40 days at about 1:43:00 or so), and didn't hear anything of substance to support that view. He leaned heavily on the account in the book of Acts in the bible, on Pentecost being counted as 50 days after Passover, and that readers shouldn't make assumptions. He said a few times that he could go into the details, but didn't - I guess because time didn't allow.

kiwi


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tigran wrote:
boomshuka wrote:
Kiwi Chris Halvorson did a topical study on this subject and clears it up nicely. I will get you a link. It's on his site perfectinghorizons.org

Edit here it is: http://www.perfectinghorizons.org/QandA/pentpuzl.pdf


Thank you, this is a very important finding and I will amend the note at 194:1.1 in my edition accordingly.

Although there is an error in Chris Halvorson's explanation (in the second paragraph where he claims there is a gap between end of Paper 193 and beginning of Paper 194), the third paragraph of his explanation is correct.

The beginning of Paper 194 follows _immediately_ after the end of Paper 193 --- this is obvious (reference to prayer, etc). However, Section 1 of Paper 194 is separated from Section 0 by a gap of 10 days, so Chris Halvorson's explanation is essentially accurate. I will include it in my edition now. Thanks again for highlighting this.


Like William S. Sadler, I believe there was a possible gap between those two papers. Like in the New Testament Gospels, the Urantia Book may have "telescoped" this event:

Quote:
Q&A 1089 - Resurrection and Ascension on same day?

Luke seems to describe Christ's ascension on the same day as his resurrection (Luke 24:13-51), whereas Acts states clearly it was forty days after (Acts 1:3ff). What do you think?

Yes, at first blush it does appear that the ascension and resurrection took place on the same day! But keeping in mind that Luke authored both Luke and Acts -- where the ascension took place 40 days after the resurrection -- we must give him the benefit of the doubt. It is quite common in scripture for events to be telescoped. That is, events are mentioned in the same breath that may take place days, years, or even centuries apart.

Luke ends with the ascension perhaps because this is how he is beginning the book of Acts; the ascension is the transition between Volumes I and II of his magnum opus.
http://douglasjacoby.com/q-as/5539-q-a- ... n-same-day

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Last edited by Yoder777 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:10 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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boomshuka wrote:
He explains that the revelators don't repeat what is properly depicted in the bible, they expect us to know that.


Does this include moral commandments in the Bible that aren't mentioned in the Urantia Book? Some Urantians, for example, have favored gay marriage since homosexuality isn't specifically condemned in the Urantia Book.

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Ok, so the thread topic has stalled a little, which is fine. Happy to carry on talking about Chris Halvorson's idea as presented by boom. Or could hear from anyone who knows much about 1st century history, politics and religion, who could comment on how likely it is that the Pentecost as mentioned in the UB is actually by the Essene calendar and different to the Pharisee one. Maybe it's completely unlikely? But then again, maybe it's possible and could explain why Papers 193 and 194 read as though one follows the other.

Anyway, here are some quotes, if any are interested
Tertullian in the late second century/early third century wrote:
Pentecost is a most joyous space for conferring baptisms; wherein, too, the resurrection of the Lord was repeatedly proved among the disciples, and the hope of the advent of the Lord indirectly pointed to, in that, at that time, when He had been received back into the heavens, the angels told the apostles that “He would so come, as He had withal ascended into the heavens;” at Pentecost, of course.
Bishop Eusebius in the fourth century wrote:
All these events occurred during a most important festival, I mean the august and holy solemnity of Pentecost, which is distinguished by a period of seven weeks, and crowned with that one day on which the holy Scriptures attest the reception of our common Saviour into heaven, and the descent of the Holy Spirit among men.

And: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/mcnamer.shtml

kiwi


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Papers 193 and 194 do follow one another. It is quite obvious — which part of it do you think requires explanation? The "problem" starts at Section 1 of Paper 194 which is obviously NOT the beginning thereof. Remember that each Paper had unnamed Section 0 which is its real beginning. Normally these "preface" sections are named by the title of the paper itself, in the standard PDF editions of Urantia Papers, but only in the metadata, not in the electronic paper itself, where it is left unnamed.

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No one is saying that 194 does not follow 193 Tigran. Chris said that at the end of 193 the apostles are beginning a 2 week long gathering. So 194 follows 193 but not on the same day. Even though its the same event. I have been on vacation for a long while so I haven't been able to research this yet. Chris seems to think that the bible supports this viewpoint. So I will have to research that as well.

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Paper 194 follows 193 not only on the same day but also on the same hour. But the Section 1 of Paper 194 follows after a considerable gap of about 10 days. Chris Halvorson pointed this out convincingly enough for me to record this finding as a footnote in the British Study Edition of the Urantia Papers.

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