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Rsarmast wrote:
… some people become "disadjustered." You can lose your Adjuster (and your soul) by willfully and persistently choosing evil. No shortage of those people on 606. And then of course, those who don't even believe in God. All of these groups cannot, according to the UB, reach the Mansion worlds. …
Here’s another thread which addresses these issues: What gives salvation? Faith/Actions/Beliefs?. Regarding personality survival, I think it was more or less concluded that (currently) Urantians can be seen as very small infants spiritually, and that it is (therefore) doubtful that even the most advanced of us could totally self-destruct through iniquity. To self-destruct one first has to recognize divine reality. According to TUB: "Sin is a conscious choosing to oppose spiritual progress," and "Iniquity consists in an open and persistent defiance of recognized reality." ..
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67:1.4 There are many ways of looking at sin, but from the universe philosophic viewpoint sin is the attitude of a personality who is knowingly resisting cosmic reality. Error might be regarded as a misconception or distortion of reality. Evil is a partial realization of, or maladjustment to, universe realities. But sin is a purposeful resistance to divine reality—a conscious choosing to oppose spiritual progress—while iniquity consists in an open and persistent defiance of recognized reality and signifies such a degree of personality disintegration as to border on cosmic insanity.
So most of us most probably will survive this material life. And those who don't believe in God (atheists) obviously don’t recognize God, therefore they cannot sin. Denying the existence of God is not the same as knowingly/purposefully resisting divine reality ..
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112:2.9 The possession of personality identifies man as a spiritual being since the unity of selfhood and the self-consciousness of personality are endowments of the supermaterial world. The very fact that a mortal materialist can deny the existence of supermaterial realities in and of itself demonstrates the presence, and indicates the working, of spirit synthesis and cosmic consciousness in his human mind.

112:5.9 This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.


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The issue is that readers of TUB assume that when Jesus is talking about "Entering the kingdom of heaven" and salvation that he is talking about just waking up on the Mansion Worlds. They make the same connection that Catholics/Christians and Jews make in believing that salvation and entering the kingdom of heaven is merely surviving this life and making it into "heaven" ie. Mansonia. They don't consider that there is a period in the next life where there is still a potential for them to lose their own soul and thus not enter the kingdom of heaven, but die. When Jesus is talking about survival he is talking about eternal life not just making it to the mansion worlds as a mortal who can potentially still die. The audio I put out there should clear this issue up though :). As long as there is that "faint flicker" of primitive recognition of the light within there is still hope. Destorying that ability to even recognize a little goodness takes a lot of habitual sinning.

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The issue is that readers of TUB assume that when Jesus is talking about "Entering the kingdom of heaven" and salvation that he is talking about just waking up on the Mansion Worlds. They make the same connection that Catholics/Christians and Jews make in believing that salvation and entering the kingdom of heaven is merely surviving this life and making it into "heaven" ie. Mansonia. They don't consider that there is a period in the next life where there is still a potential for them to lose their own soul and thus not enter the kingdom of heaven, but die. When Jesus is talking about survival he is talking about eternal life not just making it to the mansion worlds as a mortal who can potentially still die. The audio I put out there should clear this issue up though :). As long as there is that "faint flicker" of primitive recognition of the light within there is still hope. Destorying that ability to even recognize a little goodness takes a lot of habitual sinning.


Boom,
It is very convenient for you to generalize readers of TUB as if you are not. I have noticed you have become a hardline follower of Chris Halvorson and now even thinks that non-Halvorsonist UB readers are wrong in their interpretations. I agree Chris Halvorson is very knowledgeable and have very good insights and explanations of so much topics contained in the UB but he is still human and can make error. I think Robert Sarmast has also lots of good points. But I also don't agree with everything he said.


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I'm gonna wait till I'm dead.


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Bart says rightly: "So most of us most probably will survive this material life." I mean his use of the term survive is accurate. And boom is correct that "salvation" is a different term with different meaning - it comes only upon fusion as prior to that there is the potential or possibility of not surviving into eternity. One survives the material realms to Mansonia and then one survives into eternity. But "entering the kingdom" is neither of these IMO. Jesus spoke of the "kingdom" in five distinct ways: the kingdom within, the kingdom of the universe and all its beings, the kingdom of the next mortal epoch, the kingdom of light and life to come, and the kingdom of believers. The text clearly says one must be discerning and judicious to understand which of these 5 kingdoms is being referenced by Him in text and quote.

Jesus also talks a lot about being reborn or born in the spirit...a conscious choice and act of will alignment.

I sometimes feel like all these concepts are like the squares on a Rubik's cube....not always so easily aligned. One twist and you have a new perplexion.

So the soul is born upon the TA endowment.

Then there is a choice of seeking or answering and opening the door of mind to TA.

And soul content, spirit progress, and circle progression to the third where, as I recall, the mind wills its alignment with TA.

And the first circle from whence fusion eventually takes place. Only now is eternity a certainty.

Surviving this mortal life would seem to be a rather simple thing to do as the many posts here support....any deaf, dumb, and blind child should do it. A life filled with evil is not sinful nor iniquitous nor rejection by any definition. It's just one, short season of mistakes. But I do wonder about the willful selfishness that most mortals do learn to be wrong...isn't that sin? And the hypocracy effect on mind troubles me too....if you DO know better but act against this knowledge, what effect on mind?

As YSMAEL suggests, this ain't easy or certain to determine by text. Enjoying all of you. Thanks.


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YSMAEL wrote:
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The issue is that readers of TUB assume that when Jesus is talking about "Entering the kingdom of heaven" and salvation that he is talking about just waking up on the Mansion Worlds. They make the same connection that Catholics/Christians and Jews make in believing that salvation and entering the kingdom of heaven is merely surviving this life and making it into "heaven" ie. Mansonia. They don't consider that there is a period in the next life where there is still a potential for them to lose their own soul and thus not enter the kingdom of heaven, but die. When Jesus is talking about survival he is talking about eternal life not just making it to the mansion worlds as a mortal who can potentially still die. The audio I put out there should clear this issue up though :). As long as there is that "faint flicker" of primitive recognition of the light within there is still hope. Destorying that ability to even recognize a little goodness takes a lot of habitual sinning.


Boom,
It is very convenient for you to generalize readers of TUB as if you are not. I have noticed you have become a hardline follower of Chris Halvorson and now even thinks that non-Halvorsonist UB readers are wrong in their interpretations. I agree Chris Halvorson is very knowledgeable and have very good insights and explanations of so much topics contained in the UB but he is still human and can make error. I think Robert Sarmast has also lots of good points. But I also don't agree with everything he said.



No I don't think Bart is wrong or FanofVan. I even said that I saw this situation exactly as Robert did not long ago. So I am putting myself in the same boat as everyone else. Chris Halvorson also is not reinventing the wheel. He is just explaining TUB, he is not special in any way shape or form. Most of what Chris presents is not in contradiction to how others read the book. It is just a slightly more detailed way to look at the book. You don't need to worry yourself with how I read the book or how Chris reads it ;).

Something to consider is that the midwayers told the forum to form study groups. Study groups are a natural part of what is supposed to be unfolding. I am sure many readers you talk to online are using study groups as a means to help them understand the book. Chris offers a free online study group and seeing as I don't have one in the area I live in I join in. Lets move on from these childish insinuations like adults :) unless you feel that you need to keep posting your thoughts about my perceived online character.

I am a follower of the book and its teachings not Chris Halvorson. It's easy to hate someone who leads a study group. But having that study group leadership in place can be a good thing no matter who that person happens to be. We are all brothers and equal to one another. We are not opposing football teams that need to hate one another, I gave up that mentality.

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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Alwilliams reminds me of something a pastor I once knew used to say relative to the Christian idea of the rapture. He would say, "There are pre-millennialists who believe the rapture comes before the tribulation, a-millennialists who believe it comes in the middle and post-millennialists who think it comes last. I am a PAN-millennialist. Any way it pans out is fine with me.

Seriously though, our understanding of these many statements in the Urantia Book and the entire rest of the book for that matter tell us really only one thing. It is the greatest opportunity in all creation to know that we can know the mind of the Universal Father and that we can know him in infinity and eternity. Any less than our entire body, mind and soul effort to bring that to be is unworthy of the opportunity. To rest on the supposition that we may be able to wait to make a final choice until we get past physical death is contrary to that. Jesus, as I recall, never said "Its ok you can wait till later, its no big deal."

It becomes each of us to be that light into this world's darkness with such a sense of urgency as to make a real difference. Behz is right. Al is right, and Chris is right but it isn't our job to worry about who isn't going to make that decision NOW it is our job to worry about those who will. STARTING WITH EACH OF US!! Our real job is to make sure we are doing everything we can to know God.

May we all be blessed as we do that!

Jim


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Boom - I agree. Study groups are important. I once served as a study group coordinator in a large area with several very diverse groups. Some did sequential and others did topical. Some were in the same place and some floated locations. Some were fundamental and some were.....well, weird and fanciful. But all fed the seekers and brought relationship to the truth. But that was so 19th century. I hope that form of study group not only survives but thrives. Personal community and cooperative ventures. Every group chose some form(s) of local impact ministry - getting books into libraries and book stores; prison ministry; campus outreach; regional conference cooperatives by multiple study groups; recreational gatherings; Jesus Bday celebrations; trips to national and international conferences; Brotherhood and then Fellowship activism; etc., etc. This movement was birthed by study groups. And it is still nurtured by such.

I applaud all such efforts in this new digital age. We must form community. We must have movement. We must attract and then feed the seekers. I hope this internet seed may sprout into holographic personalizations of seekers into community and relationship far beyond this seed of keyboard frustrations. I am excited by the potential of today's techno relationships and communities. But it is a bit frustrating. I'd love to be present when you and Bart get eye ball to eye ball over an issue only to melt into comradary and the laughter of brothers. Father loves the sinner, but He does not hate the sin as it has no reality or meaning. He just ignores the irrelevancy of it. We must all learn to do the same. We are all truthseekers here. And we all disagree on much as well as agree on plenty. Shall we not laugh about it and have fun together in our worthy and inevitable disagreements and misunderstandings? Let us agree to disagree on the trifles amidst truth. Peace.


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Remember Brothers That :arrow:

The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity.

(435.7) 39:4.14 The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them — advance in spirit status — by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always — in any sphere, in all of them — this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.

sin·cer·i·ty
sinˈseritē/Submit
noun
noun: sincerity
1.
the quality of being free from pretense, deceit, or hypocrisy.
"the sincerity of his beliefs is unquestionable"
synonyms: honesty, genuineness, truthfulness, integrity, probity, trustworthiness;


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I fully agree with what Rsarmast pointed out. [I wanted to quote all those here once again.]
Any way, I suggest all to have a careful reading of what he had written.

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Rsarmast says above: "The universe only recognizes two types of people - those who do God's will and those who don't. Those who do the Father's will - they are our family, our nation, our brothers and sisters. It doesn't matter what they read or don't read, what they know or don't know, where they live or what color their skin is. The perfection of our Father is beautiful to witness."

I have always found it interesting that in the 5 ways Jesus used the "kingdom", one is the kingdom of "believers". Not the kingdom of the indwelt ones (although the kingdom within or the relationship of mind to TA is another such kingdom described).

I know we are extended nearly an inexhaustable amount of mercy credits and we must knowingly reject love, mercy, and the Spirit to suffer extinction, but I am troubled by hypocracy and selfishness (Coop points out the sincerity issue above for us), and I wonder just how twisted and dark some people's minds can become....in even a few short years or decades? Such ones are not in this family or kingdom of believers. Remember the wheat and the tares? Jesus seemed to be saying that some minds do not and will not come to the Spirit....and in considerable number. He also said that the Spirit "actively" pursues and responds to neglect of the spirit proactively...He does not sit and twiddle idly awaiting the blind to see. So, I wonder, how much rejection does actually take place in this life by some?

As to the purpose and audience for this Revelation, I personally doubt it is for Reservists (I'm not one and don't know that I ever met one) since they are in position to affect planetary affairs by some position held or skill set vital to deflecting or changing the course of history (unknown to theselves I think and all others and not famous necisarily) and may not even be particularly spiritually enlightened or motivated....they are responsive tools for those in charge of our protection and progress.

But I do agree the UB is not an easy study and one must be eager and thirst for truth to dive in and stay in. The intelligence level IMO has more to do with what, which, and how much one gets from the text - like the parables of the Master. There is confirmation and revelation of truth for any earnest and open minded seeker I have found. I claim no great intellect and have met others, dedicated students and believers, who also cannot claim any great education or intellectual prowess. So I must disagree on that one.

But I do agree whole heartedly that the UB is written in a way to appeal, EVEN, to great minds and deep thinkers and highly educated people too. It appeals to every mind by a different route and by various points of context. Some of the stuff that appeals most to others I find dense and dull and without great value except as additional conceptualization and brain challenge....it makes me think to be sure.

And as to emergency....my opinion is that we've been in one since....well, almost forever, meaning this particular time is probably not any more an emergency or problematic than any prior time. There will not be a "deliverence" from the certain social repurcussions of free will choice....except of course those miraculous interventions that have always occured by angels and midwayers....making divine lemonade out of all these mortal lemons we keep delivering up.

Rsarmast says very interesting things and I'm glad you share yourself here for us to consider this Revelation together. My agreements are many and my disagreements not so certain. Look forward to more. Peace.


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SO The Question IS

IS The Urantia Book / The FER

FOR ... EVERYONE :?:

OR ONLY For A Select Few ... Truth Seekers . :?:

IS ... IT For NOW ? Or For A Later Time ?

Must The Truths Within IT Wait Until

ALL Those With The Eyes Of The Spirit SEE The Truths Within It :?:


(1602.4) 142:6.5 Jesus said: “Nevertheless, I declare to you, except a man be born of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. But you should not marvel that I said you must be born from above. When the wind blows, you hear the rustle of the leaves, but you do not see the wind — whence it comes or whither it goes — and so it is with everyone born of the spirit. With the eyes of the flesh you can behold the manifestations of the spirit, but you cannot actually discern the spirit.”


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In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning. :idea:

(1917.3) 176:3.7 Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to “enter fully into the joy of their Lord.” What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: “Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.” But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning.

(1918.1) 176:3.8 In the next world you will be asked to give an account of the endowments and stewardships of this world. Whether inherent talents are few or many, a just and merciful reckoning must be faced. If endowments are used only in selfish pursuits and no thought is bestowed upon the higher duty of obtaining increased yield of the fruits of the spirit, as they are manifested in the ever-expanding service of men and the worship of God, such selfish stewards must accept the consequences of their deliberate choosing.


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I agree the parables Jesus gave seem damning to many. IMO we don't just escape the possibility of being uprooted by God until a little ways into our Mansion world career. I agree with Robert that we need to be born again of the Spirit to really understand the book on a deeper level. However I AM NOT CLAIMING to be one of those people who are born again!!! Lol

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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I think TUB is fairly optimistic regarding human personality survival. There might be much more good than evil in the world ..
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195:5.12 As you view the world, remember that the black patches of evil which you see are shown against a white background of ultimate good. You do not view merely white patches of good which show up miserably against a black background of evil.

195:5.13 When there is so much good truth to publish and proclaim, why should men dwell so much upon the evil in the world just because it appears to be a fact? The beauties of the spiritual values of truth are more pleasurable and uplifting than is the phenomenon of evil.
So, Robert’s (Rsarmast’s) estimate that only about a third to a half of us will make it to the mansion worlds must be wrong..


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