Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:16 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 474 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 32  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
Bart, I think the sticking point, ultimately, is how we define or interpret, "[d]esire to be cursed with his wicked presence." You take a literal approach in your interpretation to the statement. I hold to a symbolic interpretation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
The Seraphim do minister to us, but they don't do it by going into our mind, they are more of an external force. They can hear our thoughts though.

Quote:
5. Seraphic Ministry to Mortals

113:5.1.Angels do not invade the sanctity of the human mind; they do not manipulate the will of mortals; neither do they directly contact with the indwelling Adjusters. The guardian of destiny influences you in every possible manner consistent with the dignity of your personality; under no circumstances do these angels interfere with the free action of the human will. Neither angels nor any other order of universe personality have power or authority to curtail or abridge the prerogatives of human choosing.

113:5.4.In the life of the flesh the intelligence of angels is not directly available to mortal men. They are not overlords or directors; they are simply guardians. The seraphim guard you; they do not seek directly to influence you; you must chart your own course, but these angels then act to make the best possible use of the course you have chosen.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
boomshuka wrote:
The Seraphim do minister to us, but they don't do it by going into our mind, they are more of an external force. They can hear our thoughts though.

Quote:
5. Seraphic Ministry to Mortals

113:5.1.Angels do not invade the sanctity of the human mind; they do not manipulate the will of mortals; neither do they directly contact with the indwelling Adjusters. The guardian of destiny influences you in every possible manner consistent with the dignity of your personality; under no circumstances do these angels interfere with the free action of the human will. Neither angels nor any other order of universe personality have power or authority to curtail or abridge the prerogatives of human choosing.

113:5.4.In the life of the flesh the intelligence of angels is not directly available to mortal men. They are not overlords or directors; they are simply guardians. The seraphim guard you; they do not seek directly to influence you; you must chart your own course, but these angels then act to make the best possible use of the course you have chosen.


Agreed. TA is the only indwelling fragment of mind post Pentecost.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
And the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. :D All those 3 combined are like armor.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
boomshuka wrote:
And the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. :D All those 3 combined are like armor.


Fort Knox :biggrin:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
kahanyah wrote:
Bart, I think the sticking point, ultimately, is how we define or interpret, "desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." You take a literal approach in your interpretation to the statement. I hold to a symbolic interpretation.
But, as argued, it seems that your "symbolic interpretation" yields an unacceptable amount of false positives; it’s highly unlikely that the people you mentioned did personally invite Caligastia to corrupt their mind, which is a requirement..

Perhaps we can agree that it’s virtually impossible today for Caligastia to influence human minds; any perceived evil is very probably the result of personal/willfull human error..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
Bart wrote:
Perhaps we can agree that it’s virtually impossible today for Caligastia to influence human minds; any perceived evil is very probably the result of personal/willfull human error..


I am readily inclined to say that Caligastia, absolutely, is impotent to enter the human mind (53:8.6). Yet, as to his power of seduction (not to be confused with the power of possession) the Revelators do not know if he has gained momentum with his plan since 1900 AD. They leave us the following:

53:9.5, "Since Michael’s final bestowal [...] no more beings have been won to the deceiver’s cause. For nineteen hundred years the status has been unchanged." [emphasis mine]

To me that is a word of caution not to downplay or write off Caligastia just yet. It is 2013. What has Caligastia been doing for the last century? Revelators did not know, at the time of the transmission of revelation, of the successes and failures he would incur the next 100 years. IMO Caligastia might have had (and continue to) a direct hand in moving geo-political affairs and, even social ones, in the direction they are going today.

Thanks for participating with me in this discussion, Bart. I really appreciate it.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4373
Agree...great discussion. kahanya - thanks for the quotes on Cali's ability to be anywhere instantly. That does raise interesting speculations about his agenda and role in world affairs. I can think of so many events in recent history that his potential role in creating grave potentials in situations may well have been countered by the angels and midwayers - the colonies should have lost their revolution, the south should have beaten the north in the civil war in the first 9 months (Lee was asked to lead the north by Lincoln but went south and nearly won...quickly), the third reich and its allies were invincible - and then they were not, the Cuban missle crisis (and many others less known before and since) was critical as well. How many more events the past 2000 years had Cali's handiwork to credit for crisis?? Interesting to contemplate. He certainly has plenty of fear, greed, lust, pride, ego, and many other mind poisons to work with in the world of past and present.

But Father makes lemonade out of all such lemons it seems. And perhaps this is one reason and purpose that Cali (and perhaps other rebel Lanonadeks) still roam....to demonstrate universally a classroom environment of how patience and love conquers anger, hatred, and fear? Perhaps even, progress is actually accelerated by these mortal and celestial responses to his mischief? Michael's bestowal was for all of Nebadon to witness this power. I remain confident that the angels and agents of Michael, with the Most Highs, do indeed rule in the kingdoms of humanity. But they must do so in respect to the free will of primitive minds still....for awhile yet to come. But the light shines upon us and we do, after all things, live in a friendly, safe, merciful, and just universe. Great thread....thanks to all!!

8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
fanofVan wrote:
Agree...great discussion. kahanya - thanks for the quotes on Cali's ability to be anywhere instantly. That does raise interesting speculations about his agenda and role in world affairs. I can think of so many events in recent history that his potential role in creating grave potentials in situations may well have been countered by the angels and midwayers - the colonies should have lost their revolution, the south should have beaten the north in the civil war in the first 9 months (Lee was asked to lead the north by Lincoln but went south and nearly won...quickly), the third reich and its allies were invincible - and then they were not, the Cuban missle crisis (and many others less known before and since) was critical as well. How many more events the past 2000 years had Cali's handiwork to credit for crisis?? Interesting to contemplate. He certainly has plenty of fear, greed, lust, pride, ego, and many other mind poisons to work with in the world of past and present.

But Father makes lemonade out of all such lemons it seems. And perhaps this is one reason and purpose that Cali (and perhaps other rebel Lanonadeks) still roam....to demonstrate universally a classroom environment of how patience and love conquers anger, hatred, and fear? Perhaps even, progress is actually accelerated by these mortal and celestial responses to his mischief? Michael's bestowal was for all of Nebadon to witness this power. I remain confident that the angels and agents of Michael, with the Most Highs, do indeed rule in the kingdoms of humanity. But they must do so in respect to the free will of primitive minds still....for awhile yet to come. But the light shines upon us and we do, after all things, live in a friendly, safe, merciful, and just universe. Great thread....thanks to all!!

8)


Well said! And excellent points! foV! Thanks for sharing.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Indeed, a good discussion, thanks all. I would only add that we should be careful to attribute any perceived evil in the world to the influence of Caligastia. People can be held personally responsible for their errors/sins and crimes, whether or not Caligastia et al. is (somehow) involved..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
''... I would only add that we should be careful to attribute any perceived evil in the world to the influence of Caligastia. People can be held personally responsible for their errors/sins and crimes, whether or not Caligastia et al. is (somehow) involved..''

I Agree Brother Bart
'' People can be held personally responsible for their errors/sins and crimes, whether or not Caligastia et al. is (somehow) involved..''

And The Only thing I Would Change about Your Statement
IS That ...
People ARE held personally responsible for their errors/sins and crimes, whether or not Caligastia et al. is (somehow) involved..''

Because Of Our Divine Gift Of Freewill.
The Personal Freewill Choice To Choose.
The Personal Freewill Choice To Choose Truth , Beauty and Goodness
Or
Evil , Sin an Inequity
ALL Individual Personalities ARE personally responsible for their
Freewill Choices That They Choose , NOW And Forever Throughout
Their Eternal Ascension Journey.

To Attempt To Use ANY Other Personality As A Scapegoat
For YOUR Freewill Choices IS NO Excuse .
Not Now Or Later .

To Claim That The Devil Made ME DO IT .
Wont Justify Any Any Freewill Choices A Individual Chooses .
Not Now Or Later .

Each Individual Personality IS Personaly Responsible For Their Own Choices .
And Will Be Judged Accordingly.
But , Thank GOD For Mercy Credits eh .

This is the problem:

111:4.11 This is the problem: If freewill man is endowed with the powers of creativity in the inner man, then must we recognize that freewill creativity embraces the potential of freewill destructivity. And when creativity is turned to destructivity, you are face to face with the devastation of evil and sin — oppression, war, and destruction. Evil is a partiality of creativity which tends toward disintegration and eventual destruction. All conflict is evil in that it inhibits the creative function of the inner life — it is a species of civil war in the personality.



54:0.1 EVOLUTIONARY man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity. Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error; that the divine endowment of freewill choice eventuates in the divergent realms of sin and righteousness; that the persistent pursuit of divinity leads to the kingdom of God as contrasted with its continuous rejection, which leads to the domains of iniquity.


54:4.3 The very fact that an evil-doing creature can actually choose to do wrong — commit sin — establishes the fact of free-willness and fully justifies any length delay in the execution of justice provided the extended mercy might conduce to repentance and rehabilitation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing.



13:4.5 The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms.

39:4.14 The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them — advance in spirit status — by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always — in any sphere, in all of them — this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
coop wrote:
The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing.



13:4.5 The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms.

39:4.14 The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them — advance in spirit status — by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always — in any sphere, in all of them — this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.


That is a strong reference I seemed to have overlooked. It explains the yielding power, i.e., 'desire," mind or free-will has over spiritual presences. The passage in a general sense better explains how Caligastia presence yields to those who "desire [...] his wicked presence."

13:4.5, "And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their
spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature
choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in
the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of
divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
There is a few spots in the book that explain that "half-hearted efforts/desires are unavailing". In other words to have a desire actually have some effect it needs to be whole-hearted. If someone desires something half heartedly nothing will happen. Someone can not really do the will of god if they just sort of kind of feel like it. Just like someone cannot to be cursed by the presence of Caligastia if they just sort of kind of want it. It has to be a whole hearted desire.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:19 pm +0000
Posts: 584
boomshuka wrote:
There is a few spots in the book that explain that "half-hearted efforts/desires are unavailing". In other words to have a desire actually have some effect it needs to be whole-hearted. If someone desires something half heartedly nothing will happen. Someone can not really do the will of god if they just sort of kind of feel like it. Just like someone cannot to be cursed by the presence of Caligastia if they just sort of kind of want it. It has to be a whole hearted desire.



What is your take on the "ebb and flow" portion in the reference? It seems the quality or magnitude of the spirit presence is proportional to the strength of desire. I recall Chris teaching how you must continuously keep yourself anchored to these cosmic mindal states as one can backslide even after breaking through psychic circles.

There does not seem to be a fast and loose interpretation to "wholehearted," perhaps.


Quote:
5 "... And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 474 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 32  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group