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Greetings bojaq1 !!!! Quite alright to "bump" a topic up. This is a very interesting thread for sure. Let me acknowledge Makalu's correctness and my inaccuracy above. I should not have said evil is good. It's result is good, eventually if not immediately. Evil is inherent in free will. Free will is the divine plan. Perfecting oneself and perfecting the worlds of time and space and the universes of time and space are a direct function of experience and the results of free will choices. THIS is good. So evil is to be avoided or overcome and learned from to seek discernment and wisdom for learning to make better choices and thereby bring better results to eventually align our will and our well earned wisdom with Diety. But it is our choice always. Bad choices are NOT good. Sorry if I implied otherwise. But error is the ladder of learning....if, indeed, we learn from those errors.


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(970.10) 88:4.5 The objects of science are identical with those of magic. Mankind is progressing from magic to science, not by meditation and reason, but rather through long experience, gradually and painfully. Man is gradually backing into the truth, beginning in error, progressing in error, and finally attaining the threshold of truth. Only with the arrival of the scientific method has he faced forward. But primitive man had to experiment or perish.

(970.11) 88:4.6 The fascination of early superstition was the mother of the later scientific curiosity. There was progressive dynamic emotion — fear plus curiosity — in these primitive superstitions; there was progressive driving power in the olden magic. These superstitions represented the emergence of the human desire to know and to control planetary environment.

:?: :shock: :idea: :!: :roll: :wink: 8)


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kahanyah wrote:
I think in part it may be due to writings UB borrows from without applying the formal method of attribution. I know somewhere in UB it tells us the supermortals use such writings to frame the story of Urantia's genesis. But I really doubt the average person is willing to invest time to read and study the papers, and appreciate fully how these supermortals use everything at their disposal to reflect the 5th epochal revelation to us. They automatically are turned off when they encounter narrations that have a semblance to other more earlier writings. For example, the narration of Caligastia and his 100 who come to Urantia to uplift the races of mankind can be found in the writings of Enoch as the fallen angels who come to Earth to instruct the daughters of man in all kinds of sciences. Also Michael's bestowal mission can be found in the Ascension of Isaiah, a pseudapigraphal work. These are a couple of examples that come to mind, off hand. Now, this is besides the fact that the origin of the Urantia book is somewhat shrouded in mystery. In my opinion it takes a special kind of mind to receive the Urantia book. I no longer recommend the book. If it is meant to be Universal forces will bring that person to the book or vice-versa.


"It takes a mind that is free..." not hindered by fear, prejudice, preconceptions about God etc.
My first reaction when I open TUB and looked at the contents and saw innumerable -it appears to be at time- chapters about Jesus life-story, I said what is this! I read a few paragraphs and my mind in essence said "we have to see about this." Jesus life-story is missing from the Bible and I'm thinking could this be it? I could not wait to get on it. I started reading a few days after and before I could finish one page there was an alert in my inner man "do not start there, go to the beginning." That even further stirred my interest.

Now the question, what's so different about my approach to TUB that most Christians seem to shy away, even just to read it briefly? One of the main reason I have no fears of checking something out is because of my relation with Christ, that absolutely nothing I read can dissuade me from turning away from him, plus my trust in the thought adjuster (before TUB we say Holy Spirit) that he will guide me in anything I'm attempting to do. This approach many people do not take who are believers. To me it's not my mind by itself will decide a thing; whatever I'm checking out I have an ear open to the adjuster, and I have the confidence in him that I will receive answers to any questions or concerns.

Somehow many will inadvertently fear a compromise of some sort by even thinking about reading a book that contains supposedly words of Christ; after-all only the Bible contains his words people think. Some fear I think what the consequence may be if something they read rivals their deeply held beliefs. On the other hand I believe some simply do not think before they make a decision on TUB. I do believe when some understand that it's not a novel, or written by some man, or a book of another religious sect they may be curious enough to give it a try.

I believe with all my heart that TUB is meant to be taken in fully and can be understood in it's totality -at least an attempt has to be made to get through at least 75% of it for it to make good sense. A snippet here and there, and even just reading about the life-story of Jesus may not be convincing enough. It's definitely not for everyone, the intellectuality of the prose is daunting enough to drive anyone away if they show little to no patience to get through it. Therefore this I advice anyone that I think has an interest in TUB, I'd say read as much as you can, and be patient with it. TUB spews out the impatient of heart and snubs the Luke-warm uncommitted reader. TUB attracts no one having just a passing interest, it is intended only for the committed...


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Bart wrote:
kahanyah wrote:
53:8.6 The last act of Michael before leaving Urantia was to offer mercy to Caligastia and Daligastia, but they spurned his tender proffer. Caligastia, your apostate Planetary Prince, is still free on Urantia to prosecute his nefarious designs, but he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence.

... The Revelator proposes a few ideas in the above. Firstly, Caligastia is unable to enter or possess the human mind. And, second, under certain conditions, he could be summoned, drawing near the mind with the power to seduce it into sin. But how could that be if the majority of people are not aware of his presence? I listed in my previous post an example of a circumstance in which his presence could be conjured. ...
True, the majority of people may not be aware of the personal presence of Caligastia on Urantia as suggested by the revelators. Indeed, how could one "desire to be cursed with his wicked presence" if one does not know him personally?

In your example, Eve did personally know Caligastia, but I think she didn’t exactly "desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." She willingly gave in to his suggestion to combine good and evil, but she only desired to further human evolution. And even so, "neither Satan nor Caligastia could ever touch or approach the faith sons of God; faith is an effective armor against sin and iniquity." (53:8.8 ) I’m sure Eve had faith..

Of course, most people have a concept of the devil or Satan and certain satanic cults may worship such a concept. But is that the same as having a "desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." I think these people haven’t got a clue.. "The devil has been given a great deal of credit for evil which does not belong to him." ..


Bart, I don't believe that term is to be taken literally "...desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." This I say because no one in their right mind desires to be "cursed." Even today those who are called "satanist" don't relate the supposed powers of satan as being a curse. Kayanhan is right, it's the evil of one's mind is the drawing power, or the seductive lingo they adhere to like Eve did.


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Israel wrote:
… Bart, I don't believe that term is to be taken literally "...desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." This I say because no one in their right mind desires to be "cursed." Even today those who are called "satanist" don't relate the supposed powers of satan as being a curse. Kayanhan is right, it's the evil of one's mind is the drawing power, or the seductive lingo they adhere to like Eve did.
Hi Israel, I would agree that evil is only our own immature, misguided choosing against truth, beauty and goodness, which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin (130:1.5). But I don’t think that such "unwise rejection of light" has anything to do with Caligastia "entering" the human mind (53:8.6). Basically people can and must be held personally responsible for their errors and sins. And, as you say, no one in their right mind desires to be "cursed" (possessed) by anything or anyone..

Nevertheless, according to the book, it still may somehow be possible to "desire" to be "cursed" with Caligastia’s wicked presence and I do think this must be taken literally, although he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, or to draw near to their souls without such an explicit and conscious invitation. And for 1900 years since Michael’s final bestowal, no being has been won to the deceiver’s cause (53:9.5)..

I personally think it must be impossible to desire Caligastia’s wicked presence or even be seduced by him, without personally knowing him (e.g., like Eve did, though I don’t think she actually desired to be possessed by him), just as it must be impossible to "reject light" (or to wilfully sin) without fully knowing this light (or God) in the first place. So I don’t believe that any human being on Urantia today can be cursed by Caligastia’s presence, or even make the conscious final decision not to survive..


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Bart wrote:
Israel wrote:
… Bart, I don't believe that term is to be taken literally "...desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." This I say because no one in their right mind desires to be "cursed." Even today those who are called "satanist" don't relate the supposed powers of satan as being a curse. Kayanhan is right, it's the evil of one's mind is the drawing power, or the seductive lingo they adhere to like Eve did.
Hi Israel, I would agree that evil is only our own immature, misguided choosing against truth, beauty and goodness, which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin (130:1.5). But I don’t think that such "unwise rejection of light" has anything to do with Caligastia "entering" the human mind (53:8.6). Basically people can and must be held personally responsible for their errors and sins. And, as you say, no one in their right mind desires to be "cursed" (possessed) by anything or anyone..

Nevertheless, according to the book, it still may somehow be possible to "desire" to be "cursed" with Caligastia’s wicked presence and I do think this must be taken literally, although he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, or to draw near to their souls without such an explicit and conscious invitation. And for 1900 years since Michael’s final bestowal, no being has been won to the deceiver’s cause (53:9.5)..

I personally think it must be impossible to desire Caligastia’s wicked presence or even be seduced by him, without personally knowing him (e.g., like Eve did, though I don’t think she actually desired to be possessed by him), just as it must be impossible to "reject light" (or to wilfully sin) without fully knowing this light (or God) in the first place. So I don’t believe that any human being on Urantia today can be cursed by Caligastia’s presence, or even make the conscious final decision not to survive..


"...desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." This is a tough one, but I do agree with you & Kayahan that the subject has to be known for one to desire to be cursed by his presence. If that's the case I would have to assume then this "desire" is more akin to "satan" worshipers and witch doctors who are quite aware of who they serve than the average Joe having evil thoughts.


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Israel wrote:
… "desire to be cursed with his wicked presence." This is a tough one, but I do agree with you & Kayahan that the subject has to be known for one to desire to be cursed by his presence. If that's the case I would have to assume then this "desire" is more akin to "satan" worshipers and witch doctors who are quite aware of who they serve than the average Joe having evil thoughts.
Well, nothing in TUB suggests that Satan worshipers or those who call themselves witches "desire to be cursed with Caligastia’s presence", or that he may "enter" their minds. In fact, the book indicates that today this is virtually impossible. So, as far as Satanists etc. 'are aware of who they serve', it must be just some (more or less evil) figment of their imagination..


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Hi Bart,

In my opinion it is not essential to know Caligastia . Even without knowing these invisible personalities roaming around here, it is possible for people to desire them. And many keep desiring that way.

Think about it. You might get it.

God Bless!

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I think its safe to say that you have to pretty stupid to really desire to be cursed by Caligastia. I think its possible but I don't think devil worshipers are actually making that connection. I think it would have to be a pretty serious devotion to actually make that connection. Like an ultimate desire. Not something I advice testing out though. Remember this being has been around for hundreds of thousands of years he could really mess with you.

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I was thinking why so many people see mistakes with this book and I think it's just because of the stage we are at right now. We haven't quite evolved to the point where a lot of people have a higher more objective consciousness. I think once that happens TUB will be catching on a lot more.

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Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
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loveofrightdoing


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Just to toss in my .02, when I tried to tell someone that there used to be a green, orange, and blue race, they pretty much guffawed me all up and down. Gosh... that's wasn't any fun...


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gomtu wrote:
Just to toss in my .02, when I tried to tell someone that there used to be a green, orange, and blue race, they pretty much guffawed me all up and down. Gosh... that's wasn't any fun...

That's probably not a good place to start lol.

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actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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Heavena every units

Just to respond to the title of this post : why does others dimensional truths appear as falsehoods to some tUb believers ? Please answer by MP because I don't follow this thread.

Sincerely,
Iii


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Rajan C Mathew wrote:
Hi Bart,

In my opinion it is not essential to know Caligastia . Even without knowing these invisible personalities roaming around here, it is possible for people to desire them. And many keep desiring that way.

Think about it. You might get it.

God Bless!
Hi Rajan,

So, we may desire someone we don’t know? That would be quite strange don’t you think? People may desire power and riches and may have delusions of an evil spirit entity that may help them get it. But I think that to actually know/desire Caligastia would take spiritually much more advanced (human) beings than me and you. Such as our planetary Eve..


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Bart wrote:
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People may desire power and riches and may have delusions of an evil spirit entity that may help them get it


That is exactly what I meant, Bart!

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