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kahanyah wrote:
… Caligastia has increased in strength over the decades, from my observation.
Hmm.. I would say humanity may have (temporarily) decreased in strength of faith and increased in materialistic tendencies ..
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118:8.9 Lucifer similarly sought to disrupt the time governor operating in restraint of the premature attainment of certain liberties in the local system. A local system settled in light and life has experientially achieved those viewpoints and insights which make feasible the operation of many techniques that would be disruptive and destructive in the presettled eras of that very realm.
Nevertheless, "there is operative on the planet a very definite and effective superhuman supervision of world affairs and human destinies." ..
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114:7.14 Urantia mortals should not allow the comparative spiritual isolation of their world from certain of the local universe circuits to produce a feeling of cosmic desertion or planetary orphanage. There is operative on the planet a very definite and effective superhuman supervision of world affairs and human destinies.


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Bart wrote:
Nevertheless, "there is operative on the planet a very definite and effective superhuman supervision of world affairs and human destinies."


The only restrictions (besides being stripped of all administrative authority) placed on Caligastia are confinement to Urantia where he is free to roam the planet and ability to possess the human mind (TA and SoT thwart his ability to do so). Otherwise he is allowed free reign to pursue his objectives of seduction. The success of his plan depends on human response. Just look at the affairs of the world today. IMO it is very hard to deny Caligastia is working behind the scene instigating things.


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kahanyah wrote:
… Just look at the affairs of the world today. IMO it is very hard to deny Caligastia is working behind the scene instigating things.
Well, I guess that’s possible.. But I also think that faith in God and brotherhood is a very widespread universal phenomenon, which is philosophically (much) more compelling than simple faith in just matter and selfhood..

Anyway, looking at the "affairs" of the world today, who do you think might be influenced by Caligastia?


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Bart wrote:
Anyway, looking at the "affairs" of the world today, who do you think might be influenced by Caligastia?



Good question! While his access to humans is not limited to world leaders, but to choose key figures or people of prominence, I'd have to say Mugabe, the 'Ayatolas', Putin, N. Korea's current leader, leaders of Hezbollah, to name a few. And to throw in some from the West, particularly within the entertainment industry, Jay Z, Lil Wayne et al. or, basically, popular rap and hiphop culture.

Caligastia is working his seduction through geo- and social-policy, and music and video games, from what I observe.


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Does anyone know of any text about the powers of Lanonadeks? I have assumed Caligastia is limited to being present in only one place at a time and one mind (if any).(?) Don't you think the mind twisting power of power itself and the associated paranoia of profound fear deliver most of humanity's suffering? Consequential repurcussions of evil and sin are real on the material level....regardless of some old toothless demon's hopes and efforts I would think. But certainly the evil one is not idle. So what would be the agenda for one who knows all is lost for him?


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kahanyah wrote:
… Good question! While his access to humans is not limited to world leaders, but to choose key figures or people of prominence, I'd have to say Mugabe, the 'Ayatolas', Putin, N. Korea's current leader, leaders of Hezbollah, to name a few. And to throw in some from the West, particularly within the entertainment industry, Jay Z, Lil Wayne et al. or, basically, popular rap and hiphop culture.

Caligastia is working his seduction through geo- and social-policy, and music and video games, from what I observe.
So your argument hinges on the question whether or not these people "really desire to be cursed." (53:8.6) Robert Mugabe is a murderous lunatic, but he also is a Roman Catholic. I doubt he would worship the devil, but it is a possibility.. The Ayatollahs strictly follow shiite Muslim tradition which obviously is not compatible with devil worshipping. Hezbollah and its leaders also have Shiite affiliations (hence their support of Bashar al-Assad in Syria). I think Putin is a very unlikely devil worshipper. Apparently after a car accident, he became a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church and even has theocratic ideas. He stated that: "First and foremost we should be governed by common sense. But common sense should be based on moral principles. And it is not possible today to have morality separated from religious values." Kim Jong-un thinks he himself is a god, so why would he desire to be cursed by the devil of Christianity which he sees as the religion of the much hated west? Regarding 'popular rap and hiphop culture', you must be kidding me. I don’t see how rappers might be devil worshippers and how their music could be as destructive as you suggest.

If Caligastia is such a genius Lanonandek Son, then do you really think he would use people like Mukabe to further his nefarious cause. Do you really think that people like Mukabe could change the hearts and minds of people such that they will reject goodness and truth and survival? I think the opposite is true.

The way I see it, Caligastia’s best bet might be to (covertly) afflict the leaders of capitalist societies and corporate CEOs; not the obvious populist or dictator or criminal, or just some rebellious kids.. Again, "The devil has been given a great deal of credit for evil which does not belong to him." (53:8.9)


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fanofVan wrote:
Does anyone know of any text about the powers of Lanonadeks? I have assumed Caligastia is limited to being present in only one place at a time and one mind (if any).(?) Don't you think the mind twisting power of power itself and the associated paranoia of profound fear deliver most of humanity's suffering? Consequential repurcussions of evil and sin are real on the material level....regardless of some old toothless demon's hopes and efforts I would think. But certainly the evil one is not idle. So what would be the agenda for one who knows all is lost for him?


Several are listed in TUB. Here are the main ones...

35:8.15, "... Lanonandeks are capable of drawing nearer the lower creatures of the intelligent races... the most able and versatile of all local universe administrators. In executive ability they are excelled only by Gabriel and his unrevealed associates."

1. Celestial drawing power
2. Premier administrators among descending angels
3. Second to Gabriel in Executive ability

These are powers necessary to move mortals/populations in a desired direction.


I can only speculate as to his agenda, and my speculation is based on extra-Urantia book narratives. Besides the original Luciferian agenda, which was to corrupt the minds of men and the lower, celestial intelligence with the doctrine of unbridled liberty, perhaps his ultimate goal is to destroy as many mortals possible.


Last edited by kahanyah on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:54 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Bart wrote:
So your argument hinges on the question whether or not these people "really desire to be cursed."


Yes

Quote:
Robert Mugabe is a murderous lunatic, but he also is a Roman Catholic. I doubt he would worship the devil, but it is a possibility.


It is not necessary for him to either worship or be aware of the devil. I don't believe those are requisites to conjure up Caligastia's wicked presence. It is his embrace of evil that can draw Caligastia to him. Human evil is sort of like the signature signal Caligastia uses to hone in on corrupt minds he can manipulate.


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The Ayatollahs strictly follow shiite Muslim tradition which obviously is not compatible with devil worshipping.


Worship is not a requisite to summon Caligastia. Desire is the requisite. And as I explained earlier, you do not need to know who Caligastia is to desire him. Caligastia's entire essence personifies evil. The embrace of evil is synonymous with Caligastia.



Quote:
Hezbollah and its leaders also have Shiite affiliations (hence their support of Bashar al-Assad in Syria). I think Putin is a very unlikely devil worshipper. Apparently after a car accident, he became a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church and even has theocratic ideas. He stated that: "First and foremost we should be governed by common sense. But common sense should be based on moral principles. And it is not possible today to have morality separated from religious values." Kim Jong-un thinks he himself is a god, so why would he desire to be cursed by the devil of Christianity which he sees as the religion of the much hated west?


The explanation I provide to the above applies here.


Quote:
Regarding 'popular rap and hiphop culture', you must be kidding me. I don’t see how rappers might be devil worshippers and how their music could be as destructive as you suggest.


Perhaps I can create a separate thread, if mods do not mind, to illustrate evil worship in rap and hiphop.

Quote:
If Caligastia is such a genius Lanonandek Son, then do you really think he would use people like Mukabe to further his nefarious cause.



Yes because Mukabe can disrupt and destroy many lives that potentially could grow into beautiful enduring, morontial personalities. He is the ruler of a country and now is in league with extremist regimes who want to acquire nuclear weapons. His country has the resources needed to build those kinds of weapons.

Quote:
Do you really think that people like Mukabe could change the hearts and minds of people such that they will reject goodness and truth and survival? I think the opposite is true.


Homosexuality is outlawed in Zimbabwe, as one clear example of changing the hearts and minds of people. People have taken the law into their own hand because of gov policy against that lifestyle. Literally they are murdering people caught engaged in homosexual relationships.


Quote:
The devil has been given a great deal of credit for evil which does not belong to him." (53:8.9)


TUB is quite clear as to what that evil is, to which he is given credit, undeservedly; that is, daemonic possession. What I am proposing has nothing to do with daemonic possession.


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fanofVan wrote:
Does anyone know of any text about the powers of Lanonadeks? I have assumed Caligastia is limited to being present in only one place at a time and one mind (if any).



23:3.2 "...The limit of velocity for most nonenseraphimed beings is 186,280 miles of your world per second of your time..."

Lanonandeks, of their own volition, travel at the speed of light. They can travel around the globe and return to the point of origin in 1300th of a second!! They are very capable of being at 100 different places on the globe in no greater than 13 seconds! Imagine with that kind of speed they could be at hundreds of thousands of places (or people) only in 16 minutes just to whisper a seduction. How about in one hour? How about over a year? Unimaginable. If every person on the planet was bent on evil intent Caligastia could pay a visit to every single personality in less than a year. And he has been roaming the planet for over 2000 years since Michael's bestowal.


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kahanyah wrote:
Bart wrote:
So your argument hinges on the question whether or not these people "really desire to be cursed."
Yes
Okay.

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
Robert Mugabe is a murderous lunatic, but he also is a Roman Catholic. I doubt he would worship the devil, but it is a possibility.
It is not necessary for him to either worship or be aware of the devil. I don't believe those are requisites to conjure up Caligastia's wicked presence. It is his embrace of evil that can draw Caligastia to him. Human evil is sort of like the signature signal Caligastia uses to hone in on corrupt minds he can manipulate.
Hm.. I think one must be aware of his personal presence in order to "really desire to be cursed". And clearly I use the term worship here as a shorthand equivalent of the phrase "really desire to be cursed by." (53:8.9)

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
The Ayatollahs strictly follow shiite Muslim tradition which obviously is not compatible with devil worshipping.
Worship is not a requisite to summon Caligastia. Desire is the requisite. And as I explained earlier, you do not need to know who Caligastia is to desire him. Caligastia's entire essence personifies evil. The embrace of evil is synonymous with Caligastia.
As I explained above, I use the term worship as the equivalent of the term desire. And I still think one must personally know Caligastia in order to desire to be cursed by him.

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
Hezbollah and its leaders also have Shiite affiliations (hence their support of Bashar al-Assad in Syria). I think Putin is a very unlikely devil worshipper. Apparently after a car accident, he became a devout member of the Russian Orthodox Church and even has theocratic ideas. He stated that: "First and foremost we should be governed by common sense. But common sense should be based on moral principles. And it is not possible today to have morality separated from religious values." Kim Jong-un thinks he himself is a god, so why would he desire to be cursed by the devil of Christianity which he sees as the religion of the much hated west?
The explanation I provide to the above applies here.
It doesn’t explain, for example, how Kim Jong-un thinks he himself is a god, and yet may desire to be cursed by some Christian devil.

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
Regarding 'popular rap and hiphop culture', you must be kidding me. I don’t see how rappers might be devil worshippers and how their music could be as destructive as you suggest.
Perhaps I can create a separate thread, if mods do not mind, to illustrate evil worship in rap and hiphop.
Well, I’m curious. I suggest you just try. :)

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
If Caligastia is such a genius Lanonandek Son, then do you really think he would use people like Mukabe to further his nefarious cause.
Yes because Mukabe can disrupt and destroy many lives that potentially could grow into beautiful enduring, morontial personalities. He is the ruler of a country and now is in league with extremist regimes who want to acquire nuclear weapons. His country has the resources needed to build those kinds of weapons.
Disrupting lives (killing) is not the same as having mortals reject goodness truth and survival.

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
Do you really think that people like Mukabe could change the hearts and minds of people such that they will reject goodness and truth and survival? I think the opposite is true.
Homosexuality is outlawed in Zimbabwe, as one clear example of changing the hearts and minds of people. People have taken the law into their own hand because of gov policy against that lifestyle. Literally they are murdering people caught engaged in homosexual relationships.
Outlawing homosexuality is not the same as murdering people caught engaged in homosexual relationships. The people who actually did this are personally accountable.

kahanyah wrote:
Quote:
"The devil has been given a great deal of credit for evil which does not belong to him." (53:8.9)
TUB is quite clear as to what that evil is, to which he is given credit, undeservedly; that is, daemonic possession. What I am proposing has nothing to do with daemonic possession.
I’m not sure how being cursed by Caligastia differs from 'demonic possession'. TUB says mortals can somehow be possessed, but Caligastia has been comparatively impotent since the cross of Christ. ..
Quote:
53:8.9 In general, when weak and dissolute mortals are supposed to be under the influence of devils and demons, they are merely being dominated by their own inherent and debased tendencies, being led away by their own natural propensities. The devil has been given a great deal of credit for evil which does not belong to him. Caligastia has been comparatively impotent since the cross of Christ.


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Bart there is a reference that tells us the function of spirit ministries is not dependent on the recipient's awareness or being privy to such activities. This is why knowing who or what Caligastia is is irrelevant to his works. I will see if I can find the reference and post it.


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I think it's safe to say that truly desiring to be cursed by the presence of Caligastia is just plain dumb. I would think someone would have to have some serious desire to be cursed by his presence. Like a deep longing in their heart.

I also agree that rap music promotes the same self assertive and unbridled liberty that Lucifer does, but I would also say that most television, movies, commercials also promote this notion of unbridled liberty and self assertion. It seems to permeate our society and probably has since the rebellion started on our planet. I don't think that this makes these people devil worshipers though, it's just a hurdle to get past.

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Last edited by boomshuka on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:17 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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boomshuka wrote:
I think it's safe to say that truly desiring to be cursed by the presence of Caligastia is just plain dumb. I would think someone would have to have some serious desire to be cursed by his presence. Like a deep longing in their heart.

I also agree that rap music promotes the same self assertive and unbridled liberty that Lucifer does, but I would also say that most television, movies, commercials also promote this notion of unbridled liberty and self assertion. It seems to permeate our society and probably has since the rebellion started on our planet.



Boom, do you recall the reference that tells us the spirit ministries function with or without our knowledge of it? I do not remember the quote but that is the gist of it.


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kahanyah wrote:
boomshuka wrote:
I think it's safe to say that truly desiring to be cursed by the presence of Caligastia is just plain dumb. I would think someone would have to have some serious desire to be cursed by his presence. Like a deep longing in their heart.

I also agree that rap music promotes the same self assertive and unbridled liberty that Lucifer does, but I would also say that most television, movies, commercials also promote this notion of unbridled liberty and self assertion. It seems to permeate our society and probably has since the rebellion started on our planet.



Boom, do you recall the reference that tells us the spirit ministries function with or without our knowledge of it? I do not remember the quote but that is the gist of it.



Yes those are the spirit ministries that reside in our superconscious mind. We are never really aware of that aspect of our mind. They form a protective barrier from the likes of Caligastia. The only way to break that barrier would be for our personality to willfully desire Caligastia. Otherwise that barrier is automatic. Caligastia is not a spirit ministry. Someone would have to really want him with their personality in order to break that barrier.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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boomshuka wrote:
kahanyah wrote:
boomshuka wrote:
I think it's safe to say that truly desiring to be cursed by the presence of Caligastia is just plain dumb. I would think someone would have to have some serious desire to be cursed by his presence. Like a deep longing in their heart.

I also agree that rap music promotes the same self assertive and unbridled liberty that Lucifer does, but I would also say that most television, movies, commercials also promote this notion of unbridled liberty and self assertion. It seems to permeate our society and probably has since the rebellion started on our planet.



Boom, do you recall the reference that tells us the spirit ministries function with or without our knowledge of it? I do not remember the quote but that is the gist of it.



Yes those are the spirit ministries that reside in our superconscious mind. We are never really aware of that aspect of our mind. They form a protective barrier from the likes of Caligastia. The only way to break that barrier would be for our personality to willfully desire Caligastia. Otherwise that barrier is automatic. Caligastia is not a spirit ministry. Someone would have to really want him with their personality in order to break that barrier.



Do you know the reference? I distinctly recall it having to do with the ministry of the Seraphims.


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