Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:25 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:47 pm +0000
Posts: 1394
Location: San Antonio
I have been having a discussion with my Brother in-law about Hell, He is wanting to become a preacher, and is very active in his Non-Denominational Church. He has gone to a Christian Collage for his studies, and has a line of research to pull from on this subject.
So i attempted to refer to some Greek information to the origins, and some U.B. info stating that the trash dump out side of Jerusalem was also call hell... or a word meaning Hell from those days.

But when he looked it up in his resource he found nothing. is there any written material dating far enough back to confirm the existence of the trash dump out side Jerusalem in those days?

And i was wondering if there may also be other fable from other culture about a Hell, Or is it just a Christian concept?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 4086
Hey Jim - here's some info. It is not a Jewish tradition, but Zoroaster and Greek (Hades) and Christians developed their own flavor. A Bing search brings up dozens of sources and most all seem to agree:



The idea of heaven and hell came from the Zoroastrian religion.

In 586 BCE, Judah was annexed by Babylonia and many of its people deported to Babylon, with no expectation of ever being able to return. However, the Persians under Cyrus the Great conquered Babylon soon afterwards and allowed those Jews who wished to return to Judah to do so. He even promised them funds from the royal treasury for the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple. As a result of this kindness and generosity, Cyrus is treated with almost divine regard in the Book of Isaiah:

Verse 44:28: "That saith of Cyrus. He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." Verse 45:1: "Thus saith the Lord to his appointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden ..." Verse 45:4: "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel my elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee even though thou has not known me."

The Jews had a high regard for the Persians, so it is natural that they would have been receptive to ideas from the Persian religion, Zoroastrianism. We also know that the Persian eunuch Nehemiah and the priest Ezra were sent by the Persian kings to Judah supposedly to teach the Jews about their own religion.

Heaven and hell, as places of reward and punishment, had always been part of Zoroastrian belief. However, prior to the Babylonian Exile, the Hebrews did not believe in heaven and hell. Even in the post-exilic period, not everyone accepted the concepts of immortality, as shown by Ecclesiastes 9:5: 'For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten'. Even as late as the first century CE, the Sadducee sect of Judaism did not accept the concept of heaven and hell.

Jewish Response
At no time in Jewish history have the concepts of heaven and hell played a role in its teachings. This is supported by Jewish writings dating back to the Babylonian exile including the Tanach (Jewish Bible) which makes almost no mention of what might happen when we die. The Sadducees, a minority group amongst the Jews which ceased to exist with the destruction of the Second Temple, did not accept the idea of life after death. The Pharisees, the main movement with Judaism and the ancestors of modern Judaism, did accept the concept of life after death but did not have a concept of heaven and hell.

The Christian concepts of heaven and hell have their origins in several regional religions of the time including Zoroastrianism and the various religions found among the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

The Origin of Hell

“HELL,” explains the New Catholic Encyclopedia, is the word “used to signify the place of the damned.” A Protestant encyclopedia defines hell as “the place of future punishment for the wicked.” But belief in such a place of punishment after death is not limited to the main churches of Christendom. It originated many centuries before Christendom came into existence.

The Mesopotamian Hell

About 2,000 years before the birth of Jesus, the Sumerians and the Babylonians believed in an underworld that they called the Land of No Return. This ancient belief is reflected in the Sumerian and the Akkadian poems known as “The Epic of Gilgamesh” and the “Descent of Ishtar to the Underworld.” They describe this abode of the dead as a house of darkness, “the house which none leave who have entered it.”

As to the conditions prevailing there, an ancient Assyrian text states that “the nether world was filled with terror.” The Assyrian prince who was supposedly granted a view of this subterranean abode of the dead testified that his “legs trembled” at what he saw. Describing Nergal, the king of the underworld, he recorded: “With a fierce cry he shrieked at me wrathfully like a furious storm.”

Egyptian and Oriental Religions

The ancient Egyptians believed in the immortality of the soul, and they had their own concept of the afterworld. The New Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Egyptian funerary texts depict the way to the next world as beset by awful perils: fearsome monsters, lakes of fire, gates that cannot be passed except by the use of magical formulas, and a sinister ferryman whose evil intent must be thwarted by magic.”

The Indo-Iranian religions developed various beliefs on punishment after death. Concerning Hinduism, the French Encyclopædia Universalis (Universal Encyclopedia) states: “There are innumerable descriptions of the 21 hells imagined by the Hindus. Sinners are devoured by wild beasts and by snakes, laboriously roasted, sawed into parts, tormented by thirst and hunger, boiled in oil, or ground to powder in iron or stone vessels.”

Jainism and Buddhism both have their versions of hell, where impenitent sinners are tormented. Zoroastrianism, founded in Iran, or Persia, also has a hell—a cold, ill-smelling place where the souls of sinners are tormented.

Interestingly, it would appear that the torments of the Egyptian, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, and Zoroastrian versions of hell are not everlasting. According to these religions, after a period of suffering, the souls of sinners move on to some other place or state, depending on the particular religion’s concept of human destiny. Their ideas of hell resemble Catholicism’s purgatory.

Greek, Etruscan, and Roman Hells

The ancient Greeks believed in the survival of a soul (psy·khe′, the word they also used for the butterfly). They called Hades the realm of the dead and believed it was ruled over by a god of the same name. In his book Orpheus—A General History of Religions, French scholar Salomon Reinach wrote of the Greeks: “A widely spread belief was that [the soul] entered the infernal regions after crossing the river Styx in the boat of the old ferryman Charon, who exacted as the fare an obolus [coin], which was placed in the mouth of the dead person. In the infernal regions it appeared before the three judges of the place . . . ; if condemned for its crimes, it had to suffer in Tartarus. . . . The Greeks even invented a Limbo, the abode of children who had died in infancy, and a Purgatory, where a certain mild chastisement purified souls.” According to The World Book Encyclopedia, souls that ended up in Tartarus “suffered eternal torment.”

In Italy the Etruscans, whose civilization preceded that of the Romans, also believed in punishment after death. The Dictionnaire des Religions (Dictionary of Religions) states: “The extreme care that the Etruscans took of their dead is explained by their conception of the nether regions. Like the Babylonians, they considered these to be places of torture and despair for the manes [spirits of the dead]. The only relief for them could come from propitiatory offerings made by their descendants.” Another reference work declares: “Etruscan tombs show scenes of horror that inspired Christian paintings of hell.”

The Romans adopted the Etruscan hell, calling it Orcus or Infernus. They also borrowed the Greek myths about Hades, the king of the underworld, calling him Orcus, or Pluto.

The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures

What about the Jews before Jesus’ day? Concerning them, we read in the Encyclopædia Britannica (1970): “From the 5th century B.C. onward, the Jews were in close contact with the Persians and the Greeks, both of whom had well-developed ideas of the hereafter. . . . By the time of Christ, the Jews had acquired a belief that wicked souls would be punished after death in Gehenna.” However, the Encyclopædia Judaica states: “No suggestion of this later notion of Gehenna is to be found in Scripture.”

This latter statement is correct. There is no suggestion in the Hebrew Scriptures of a postmortem punishment for a soul in a fiery hell. This frightening doctrine goes back to the post-Flood religions of Babylonia, not to the Bible. Christendom’s doctrine of punishment in hell originated with the early Babylonians. The Catholic idea of remedial suffering in purgatory goes back to the early Egyptian and Oriental religions. Limbo was copied from Greek mythology. Prayers and offerings for the dead were practiced by the Etruscans. (from yahoo q&a)


another source:


Not only is hell an ancient pagan tradition (not at all unique to Christianity), but the ancient Israelites did not understand death that way according to the Holy Scripture. This is why modern Bible translations are completely evicting that word from the Old Testament! Now, why would any Bible translation seek to remove a word unless it did not belong there in the first place? Because this disgusting fable, originated from a place other than God's Holy Word - yet was craftily slipped in by the dogma motivated church of ages past.

Example: as demonstrated below, the King James Version erratically assigns two meanings ("hell" and "the grave") to one Hebrew word: "sheol" (pronounced showl). How many minds have been influenced by this vulgar, hypocritical manipulation? Do "hell" and "the grave" mean the same thing? Ask the church, ask anyone, and they will say "of course not!" In fact, open a modern Bible, and you will find they have all silently eliminated this deceit! How have they repaired this glaring contradiction? Not by translating sheol as hell consistently. Quite the opposite. They fixed the problem by contradicting the King James Version outright, and eliminating "hell" from the Old Testament altogether!

But, unfamiliar to the Christian majority, the word "hell," in the entire Bible was actually translated from four unique words: Sheol, Gehenna (a valley in Jerusalem used for dumping refuse), Hades, and Tartarus. Below are a few charts detailing these words to demonstrate how they were translated. For anyone new to the Bible, the NIV stands for New International Version, one of the most popular modern Bibles used in churches worldwide.

Here is an example: the King James translators rendered the Hebrew word sheol as "the grave" 31 times, but, they translated it as "hell" 31 times. Now, the the Israelites believed that everyone - good or bad, great or small - goes to sheol when they die. Conveniently, as evidenced in the two exemplary scriptures below, the word was rendered "grave" when God's people were said to go to Sheol, and "hell" at other times.


Genesis 44:31
It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he (Jacob) will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave (sheol).

Proverbs 9:18
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell (sheol).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:09 pm +0000
Posts: 1817
Why do ministers prefer to dwell on thinking of hell more than they do preaching the good news that Jesus preached?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:56 pm +0000
Posts: 79
Location: Texas
This topic makes me remember.
Just before I found The Urantia Book years ago I remember I was digging in the Bible on this subject and all the time I was scratching my head trying to make sense of it .No consistency in it's usage.
The next week I began reading TUB.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:00 pm +0000
Posts: 697
Location: Savannah GA
My Mom used to say that hell is when the women come back as substitute teachers and the men come back as substitute bus drivers... But I suspect she was kidding. :shock:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:47 pm +0000
Posts: 1394
Location: San Antonio
Thanks Fanofvan

I also found this, but i am having difficulty finding the U.B, description that i know i had read once


(this was from a ixquick search i did)

In rabbinic Judaism Gehenna (sometimes called Gehinnom) is an afterlife realm where unrighteous souls are punished. Although Gehenna is not mentioned in the Torah, over time it became an important part of Jewish concepts of the afterlife and represented divine justice in the postmortem realm.

Gehenna is not mentioned in the Torah and in fact does not appear in Jewish texts before the sixth century B.C.E. Nevertheless, some rabbinic texts maintain that God created Gehenna on the second day of Creation (Genesis Rabbah 4:6, 11:9). Other texts claim that Gehenna was part of God's original plan for the universe and was actually created before the Earth (Pesahim 54a; Sifre Deuteronomy 37). The concept of Gehenna was likely inspired by the biblical notion of Sheol.

In rabbinic texts Gehenna played an important role as a place where unrighteous souls were punished. The rabbis believed that anyone who did not live in accordance with the ways of God and Torah would spend time Gehenna. According to the rabbis some of the transgressions that would merit a visit to Gehenna included idolatry (Taanit 5a), incest (Erubin 19a), adultery (Sotah 4b), pride (Avodah Zarah 18b), anger and losing one's temper (Nedarim 22a). Of course, they also believed that anyone who spoke ill of a rabbinic scholar would merit time in Gehenna (Berakhot 19a).
In order to avoid a visit to Gehenna the rabbis recommended that people occupy themselves "with good deeds" (Midrash on Proverbs 17:1). "He who has Torah, good deeds, humility and fear of heaven will be saved from punishment in Gehenna," says Pesikta Rabbati 50:1. In this way the concept of Gehenna was used to encourage people to live good, ethical lives and to study Torah. In the case of transgression, the rabbis prescribed teshuvah (repentance) as the remedy. Indeed, the rabbis taught that a person could repent even at the very gates of Gehenna (Erubin 19a).
For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. "The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months," states Shabbat 33b, while other texts say the time-frame could be anywhere from three to twelve months. Yet there were transgressions that the rabbis felt did merit eternal damnation. These included: heresy, publicly shaming someone, committing adultery with a married woman and rejecting the words of the Torah. However, because the rabbis also believed that one could repent at any time, the belief in eternal damnation was not a predominant one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For me it is an easy conclusion that the Pit called Gehenna with it's trash and rotting flesh as well as smell and carnivorous creature preying on the dead would make for a great horror to set fear in young children's mind as to the place they would go if they did not stay true to the laws of God.

and this in the U.B. give some reference ... but i know there is more in the U.B. but i just can't find it. :(

188:0.2 The rulers of the Jews had planned to have Jesus’ body thrown in the open burial pits of Gehenna, south of the city; it was the custom thus to dispose of the victims of crucifixion. If this plan had been followed, the body of the Master would have been exposed to the wild beasts.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
The Christian theology of hell continues to develop. In the NT, three terms are used that get translated as "hell": Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. Hades occurs 10 times; Gehenna 12 times; Tartarus once. Almost all the occurrences of Gehenna are attributed to Jesus.

Tartarus is only mentioned in 2 Peter, one of the most disputed books of the NT. It's a Greek term for where the wicked end up. Hades, of course, is also Greek, but was understood to refer to the "underworld," a kind of shadowy place where the dead reside. Remember Odysseus travels to Hades in the Odyssey. Hades would not have been understood as a place of punishment. It corresponds to at least some uses of Sheol in the OT, although Sheol sometimes appears to mean simply "grave." Gehenna, as has already been pointed out, was a garbage dump where fires burned continuously. The use of this term would have been understood metaphorically. To end up in Gehenna would have meant to be cast aside as trash.

In modern theology, Hell is generally understood as a condition of willful separation from God. It's voluntary, in the sense that those who choose separation get it. In my opinion, the most insightful presentation of this idea is C.S. Lewis's short novel, The Great Divorce.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:47 pm +0000
Posts: 1394
Location: San Antonio
event though i did not find the quote from the U.B. i was hoping to find, I think we have a conclusion here.

That being that Hell by any name was a creation of man and not a real place where bad people go after death.

Seeing the evidence of historical fact man had plenty of life surroundings to draw from to spin a tale to create fear in men's mind to hold them to a line of thinking that was no more than a control method, maybe subtle in it's development but control all the same.

And knowing God with out the fear of going to Hell is freeing the mind and hearts of all to choose a life forward bound, instead of running from consequences.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
HELL ~ O

HELL ~ NO ! LOL ?

Hello ALL 8)

This Is What The UB Papers say about So ~ Called HELL .


86:4.7 Early man entertained no ideas of hell or future punishment. The savage looked upon the future life as just like this one, minus all ill luck. Later on, a separate destiny for good ghosts and bad ghosts — heaven and hell — was conceived. But since many primitive races believed that man entered the next life just as he left this one, they did not relish the idea of becoming old and decrepit. The aged much preferred to be killed before becoming too infirm.


89:2.4 The habitual violation of a taboo became a vice; primitive law made vice a crime; religion made it a sin. Among the early tribes the violation of a taboo was a combined crime and sin. Community calamity was always regarded as punishment for tribal sin. To those who believed that prosperity and righteousness went together, the apparent prosperity of the wicked occasioned so much worry that it was necessary to invent hells for the punishment of taboo violators; the numbers of these places of future punishment have varied from one to five.


95:2.9 When Melchizedek appeared in the flesh, the Egyptians had a religion far above that of the surrounding peoples. They believed that a disembodied soul, if properly armed with magic formulas, could evade the intervening evil spirits and make its way to the judgment hall of Osiris, where, if innocent of “murder, robbery, falsehood, adultery, theft, and selfishness,” it would be admitted to the realms of bliss. If this soul were weighed in the balances and found wanting, it would be consigned to hell, to the Devouress. And this was, relatively, an advanced concept of a future life in comparison with the beliefs of many surrounding peoples.


95:6.6 The Jewish traditions of heaven and hell and the doctrine of devils as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, while founded on the lingering traditions of Lucifer and Caligastia, were principally derived from the Zoroastrians during the times when the Jews were under the political and cultural dominance of the Persians. Zoroaster, like the Egyptians, taught the “day of judgment,” but he connected this event with the end of the world.


97:4.3 Said Amos: “He who formed the mountains and created the wind, seek him who formed the seven stars and Orion, who turns the shadow of death into the morning and makes the day dark as night.” And in denouncing his half-religious, timeserving, and sometimes immoral fellows, he sought to portray the inexorable justice of an unchanging Yahweh when he said of the evildoers: “Though they dig into hell, thence shall I take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down.” “And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I direct the sword of justice, and it shall slay them.” Amos further startled his hearers when, pointing a reproving and accusing finger at them, he declared in the name of Yahweh: “Surely I will never forget any of your works.” “And I will sift the house of Israel among all nations as wheat is sifted in a sieve.”


131:4.7 God is our Father, the earth our mother, and the universe our birthplace. Without God the soul is a prisoner; to know God releases the soul. By meditation on God, by union with him, there comes deliverance from the illusions of evil and ultimate salvation from all material fetters. When man shall roll up space as a piece of leather, then will come the end of evil because man has found God. O God, save us from the threefold ruin of hell — lust, wrath, and avarice! O soul, gird yourself for the spirit struggle of immortality! When the end of mortal life comes, hesitate not to forsake this body for a more fit and beautiful form and to awake in the realms of the Supreme and Immortal, where there is no fear, sorrow, hunger, thirst, or death. To know God is to cut the cords of death. The God-knowing soul rises in the universe like the cream appears on top of the milk. We worship God, the all-worker, the Great Soul, who is ever seated in the heart of his creatures. And they who know that God is enthroned in the human heart are destined to become like him — immortal. Evil must be left behind in this world, but virtue follows the soul to heaven.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:47 pm +0000
Posts: 1394
Location: San Antonio
Do you think the concept of a Hell serve any true purpose today?

Obviously it is so ingrained into many traditions that it will be a long time before it can be rationally and logically removed.

We still live in a world dominated by superstitions, where the enlightened are the few and easy targets for witch hunts.
Look at how Scientist have nearly been burned at the stack for the many truths they have uncover.

How long will it take for us to live in a world that can move forward with out a majority wanting to pull is back?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:47 pm +0000
Posts: 265
Before Christianity, our forefathers (the Bidayuh tribe, Borneo) do not have version of Hell but they do have the concept spirit world and indeed they worshipped those, much to their folly and understanding of it, to the extreme. They do believe in the one Almighty Father God (as they termed it) and the Karma thing and the God's revenge/wrath for bad people; but Hell, a place of eternal torture comes only recently with Christianity. Their spirit world and paradise are but the same thing.

Their Christianized generations of today strongly believe what was taught and indeed thinking that it must be of a superior view for reason that its origin was from God;contained in His Holy book.
So many beliefs and versions of Hell; but i personally is more towards the NDE (Near Death Experiencers)accounts and TUB; i mean, thats my personal view, or Caligastia must be smiling now?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:23 am +0000
Posts: 299
babuk wrote:
Before Christianity, our forefathers (the Bidayuh tribe, Borneo) do not have version of Hell but they do have the concept spirit world and indeed they worshipped those, much to their folly and understanding of it, to the extreme. They do believe in the one Almighty Father God (as they termed it) and the Karma thing and the God's revenge/wrath for bad people; but Hell, a place of eternal torture comes only recently with Christianity. Their spirit world and paradise are but the same thing.

Their Christianized generations of today strongly believe what was taught and indeed thinking that it must be of a superior view for reason that its origin was from God;contained in His Holy book.
So many beliefs and versions of Hell; but i personally is more towards the NDE (Near Death Experiencers)accounts and TUB; i mean, thats my personal view, or Caligastia must be smiling now?


hmm, interesting, Could you please elaborate more on the NDE, give an example perhaps, are they in line with what the TUB teaches ? Why are you personally inclined to them if you don't mind the asking!?

_________________
Mark,
9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness;


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 974
Quote:
Do you think the concept of a Hell serve any true purpose today?


I think it's related to fear and it serves a purpose (but not a true one) individually and collectively...the Master said "But it is still true of those who sit in darkness that ‘the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.’" But it's not the end of wisdom...love is.

Quote:
6. THE “FEAR OF THE LORD”



149:6.1 It was at Gamala, during the evening conference, that Philip said to Jesus: “Master, why is it that the Scriptures instruct us to ‘fear the Lord,’ while you would have us look to the Father in heaven without fear? How are we to harmonize these teachings?” And Jesus replied to Philip, saying:



149:6.2 “My children, I am not surprised that you ask such questions. In the beginning it was only through fear that man could learn reverence, but I have come to reveal the Father’s love so that you will be attracted to the worship of the Eternal by the drawing of a son’s affectionate recognition and reciprocation of the Father’s profound and perfect love. I would deliver you from the bondage of driving yourselves through slavish fear to the irksome service of a jealous and wrathful King-God. I would instruct you in the Father-son relationship of God and man so that you may be joyfully led into that sublime and supernal free worship of a loving, just, and merciful Father-God.

149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.

149:6.4 “Intelligent children do not fear their father in order that they may receive good gifts from his hand; but having already received the abundance of good things bestowed by the dictates of the father’s affection for his sons and daughters, these much loved children are led to love their father in responsive recognition and appreciation of such munificent beneficence. The goodness of God leads to repentance; the beneficence of God leads to service; the mercy of God leads to salvation; while the love of God leads to intelligent and freehearted worship.

149:6.5 “Your forebears feared God because he was mighty and mysterious. You shall adore him because he is magnificent in love, plenteous in mercy, and glorious in truth. The power of God engenders fear in the heart of man, but the nobility and righteousness of his personality beget reverence, love, and willing worship. A dutiful and affectionate son does not fear or dread even a mighty and noble father. I have come into the world to put love in the place of fear, joy in the place of sorrow, confidence in the place of dread, loving service and appreciative worship in the place of slavish bondage and meaningless ceremonies. But it is still true of those who sit in darkness that ‘the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.’ But when the light has more fully come, the sons of God are led to praise the Infinite for what he is rather than to fear him for what he does.

149:6.6 “When children are young and unthinking, they must necessarily be admonished to honor their parents; but when they grow older and become somewhat more appreciative of the benefits of the parental ministry and protection, they are led up, through understanding respect and increasing affection, to that level of experience where they actually love their parents for what they are more than for what they have done. The father naturally loves his child, but the child must develop his love for the father from the fear of what the father can do, through awe, dread, dependence, and reverence, to the appreciative and affectionate regard of love.

149:6.7 “You have been taught that you should ‘fear God and keep his commandments, for that is the whole duty of man.’ But I have come to give you a new and higher commandment. I would teach you to ‘love God and learn to do his will, for that is the highest privilege of the liberated sons of God.’ Your fathers were taught to ‘fear God—the Almighty King.’ I teach you, ‘Love God—the all-merciful Father.’

149:6.8 “In the kingdom of heaven, which I have come to declare, there is no high and mighty king; this kingdom is a divine family. The universally recognized and unreservedly worshiped center and head of this far-flung brotherhood of intelligent beings is my Father and your Father. I am his Son, and you are also his sons. Therefore it is eternally true that you and I are brethren in the heavenly estate, and all the more so since we have become brethren in the flesh of the earthly life. Cease, then, to fear God as a king or serve him as a master; learn to reverence him as the Creator; honor him as the Father of your spirit youth; love him as a merciful defender; and ultimately worship him as the loving and all-wise Father of your more mature spiritual realization and appreciation.

149:6.9 “Out of your wrong concepts of the Father in heaven grow your false ideas of humility and springs much of your hypocrisy. Man may be a worm of the dust by nature and origin, but when he becomes indwelt by my Father’s spirit, that man becomes divine in his destiny. The bestowal spirit of my Father will surely return to the divine source and universe level of origin, and the human soul of mortal man which shall have become the reborn child of this indwelling spirit shall certainly ascend with the divine spirit to the very presence of the eternal Father.

149:6.10 “Humility, indeed, becomes mortal man who receives all these gifts from the Father in heaven, albeit there is a divine dignity attached to all such faith candidates for the eternal ascent of the heavenly kingdom. The meaningless and menial practices of an ostentatious and false humility are incompatible with the appreciation of the source of your salvation and the recognition of the destiny of your spirit-born souls. Humility before God is altogether appropriate in the depths of your hearts; meekness before men is commendable; but the hypocrisy of self-conscious and attention-craving humility is childish and unworthy of the enlightened sons of the kingdom.

149:6.11 “You do well to be meek before God and self-controlled before men, but let your meekness be of spiritual origin and not the self-deceptive display of a self-conscious sense of self-righteous superiority. The prophet spoke advisedly when he said, ‘Walk humbly with God,’ for, while the Father in heaven is the Infinite and the Eternal, he also dwells ‘with him who is of a contrite mind and a humble spirit.’ My Father disdains pride, loathes hypocrisy, and abhors iniquity. And it was to emphasize the value of sincerity and perfect trust in the loving support and faithful guidance of the heavenly Father that I have so often referred to the little child as illustrative of the attitude of mind and the response of spirit which are so essential to the entrance of mortal man into the spirit realities of the kingdom of heaven.

149:6.12 “Well did the Prophet Jeremiah describe many mortals when he said: ‘You are near God in the mouth but far from him in the heart.’ And have you not also read that direful warning of the prophet who said: ‘The priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money. At the same time they profess piety and proclaim that the Lord is with them.’ Have you not been well warned against those who ‘speak peace to their neighbors when mischief is in their hearts,’ those who ‘flatter with the lips while the heart is given to double-dealing’? Of all the sorrows of a trusting man, none are so terrible as to be ‘wounded in the house of a trusted friend.’”


I see loose correlations between the progressions from fear, through awe, reverence, recognition, realization, appreciation, to love and the seven Adjutant Spirits: intuition, understanding, courage, knowledge, counsel, worship and wisdom.

And I think that sometimes the concept of no-hell is one of those truths best "shared in love or withheld in wisdom" that the papers mention.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:47 pm +0000
Posts: 265
hai kicoverz,

TUB and NDE : My inclination towards NDE?...next to a revelation, the better truth is the ones from the source itself and there are no better ways other than from those who had been there and back; this was my initial mind set during those times of spiritual cross roads, and thus my interest with NDE (DR. Atwater, Dr. George Ritchie and many others, Kevin Williams Research Conclusion/volumes, individuals accounts, Edgar Cayce, real life literatures of NDE) TUB only deepened my interest to seek more.

House rule boken? No?—thank you admin for allowing me to answer my friend kicoverz.

The sequence of my journey was at first Christian ,readings of NDE and other religions and then Urantia book; in that order. My counter with TUB was simply after an earnest prayer for something more concerning truth. After having through these phases and in my own mind, none of these by itself was complete and whole, but containing seeming fragments of each other; or how can i say it, even an attempt by each to explain their part of the whole. With the exception of TUB, the folly of those others is to commit the fault of claiming the monopoly of truth and truthfullness. After having TUB, things seems to falls into perspective and becoming clearer; IMO, TUB aptly presence the bigger picture while some others like NDE,for example, represent the trees of the forest; albeit not whole. At least in my mind, having TUB as the vantage point to figure out the mazes of those other ‘smaller truths’ (not lesser)gave a much better sense of perspective to the jigsaw-puzzle.

As for any harmony between NDE and TUB, the situation is rather;quoting Dinesh D Souza’s favourite catch phrase:..like a mosquito in a nudist camp! Nevertheless, I do not and cannot decide for others ; themselves judge. Here are some examples:
TUB/paper 47:3: 2, The very center of all activities on the first mansion world is the resurrection hall, the enormous temple of personality assembly. The gigantic structure…

NDE – One remarkable aspect of many near-death accounts is a visit to a heavenly structure that resembles a temple or a library. This strcucture has different names, such as: the Temple of Knowledge, the temple of Wisdom, the Hall of Records, or simply a library ( Kevin Williams)

Quickly we approached a structure of supernal beauty. It was vast, of the purest white, and somewhat Grecian in architecture. Paths led into the structure from all directions, and I observed many people coming and going… (Jan Price’s experience)

Like wingless birds, we swept into a city of Cathedrals. These cathedral were made entirely of a crystalline substance that glow with a light that shone powerfully from within. I was awestruck. This place had a power that seemed pulsate through the air. I knew I was in a place of learning. I wasn’t there to witness my life or to see what value I had had, I was there to be instructed (Dannion Brinkley’s )

Suddenly we got into a place that look like a room or a church or a temple, the only thing was that it was shining brighter than the sun. I can’t remember what happened after we entered the light, but when I came back I became a different person (J.A ‘s experience)

I began to perceive a whole new realm! Enormous building stood in a beautiful sunny park that reminded me somewhat of a well-planned university. As we entered on of the building and doorways, the air was so hushed that I was actually startled to see people in the passageway (Dr. George Ritchie’s experience)
(In the Library) One of them was Albert Einstein, whom I had always admired greatly, and this great man took time away from his duties to encourage me……(Dr. Allen Kelleher’s temple experience)

TUB/ Part 3 : 7:1 – It is indeed an epoch in the center of an ascending mortal, this first awakening on the shores of the mansion world, there, for the first time, actually you see your long-loved and ever-present angelic companions of earth days……Such an experience constitutes a glorious awakening, a real resurrection.
2. On the morontia spheres the attending seraphim (there are two of them) are your open companions. These angels not only consort with you as you progress through the career of the transition worlds, in every way possible assisting you in the acquirement of morontia and spirit status…

NDE – Since your arrival here, you have been escorted through several different realms; there are many more, and nothing is restricted. Each person is free to experience fully (Jan Price)
I thank this loving being for explaining and showing me what he did. He told me that there was more for him to show me if I was ready to experience it. I told him I was ready……(David Oakland)

The guides told me I was in the threshold of death. I wondered if the persons who were dying and leaving their bodies in that moment, knew where they were. The guides that accompanied me were kind, tactful and VERY COMPLAINT, but impenetrable when certain question were asked, and when they did, they answered with a smile. The communication was by telepathy and they knew instantly what I was thinking, but their answer were essential, concise and certain. (Diego Valencia)

The farther up I went, the brighter the Light became. Two cherubs appeared, one on each side of me, and we slowly drifted to the corner of the ceiling. We communicate through mental telepathy…they told me they were escort angels and had come to take me home. (Donna Gatti)

Some interesting cases. /The Heavens- - I saw the Christian heaven. We expect it to be a beautiful place, and you stand in front of the throne, worshipping forever. I tried it. It is boring. This is all we are going to do? It is childlike. I do not mean to offend anyone. Some heavens are very interesting, and some are very boring. I found the ancient ones to be more interesting, like the Native American ones, the Happy Hunting Grounds. The Egyptians have fantastic ones. It goes on and on. There are so many of them. In each of them there ia a fractal that is your particular interpretation, unless you are part of the group soul that believes in only the God of a particular religion. Then you are very close, in the same ball park together. But even then, each is a little bit different. That is a part of yourself that you leave there. Death is about life, not about heaven. (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

A fundamentalist preacher’s death experience; -- A billy Sunday-type who preach hellfire and brimstone and believes every bit of the Good Book literally. He dies, and after the first shock of discovering that God is not sitting on a throne surrounded by angels, he begins exhorting people here to repent before it is too late. He thinks that this is a very brief interlude until he adjusts, and that the rest of us are probably lost souls who lack the righteousness to advance into god’s waiting arms…This preacher, at first rants and exhorts, demanding to know of the older souls around here how he can find the way to the throne of God, because e honestly believes that it is being concealed from him in some mysterious way. At last the old souls gather around and explain to Billy that he is preaching a false doctrine; that heaven is within each man, and so is his private hell; that he has arrived, and nothing is being hidden from him. It is up to him to begin work on his own spiritual advancement, and he is retarding the progress of others by misleading them with false hopes of a promised land. For this is the promised land, and we make of it what we will through our own endeavors. (Ruth Montgomery)

What i discovered for me was that two independent sources complimenting each other in almost all aspects.
Glad that I had Christianity, NDE and TUB.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google Feedfetcher


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group