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I have been reading the U.B. sense 1986, and i admit much of the book is a challenge, when i found out about the Saddler papers they became a great resource for me to see a possible and clearer interpretation of the U.B. writings.

And in all my reading and personal growth with the book, i have never developed a Fundamental approach in it's interpretations.

Saddlers papers in no way lead me in that direction either.
But as of the last 12 months i have seen persons giving some very strong, fundamental interpretations of the Book.

I agree we can read and interpret the book any way we want.
It is easy to also quote passages to back up our interpretations, thus convincing other to see things that way.

I am concerned of these interpretations, and that they will lead to problems down the raod for future U.B. readers.

I have stated many time i don't agree with some of the interpretations and may be the only one, but i thought if i put my concern out here in the open we may find some common ground on this issue.

Staying True To the Journey.


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Hi JB, The book itself states that it is a written revelation; the only limit on conveying absolute truth is the use of the English language and our limited human capacity to understand spirit concepts.

This implies that if a proposition is clearly not compatible with any TUB statement, then that proposition must be false. And if any proposition seems fully compatible with TUB, then that proposition might be true.

I’m not sure what instances of fundamentalism in the Urantia movement you refer to. But the book shouldn’t contain errors. So it should be read and interpreted in a fundamentalist fashion. Either the book is what it claims to be (revelation) or it is not.

Future readers will have to decide this for themselves; based on their evaluation of factual information in TUB and possibly personal spiritual experience. Thereby any topical discussion by other readers (e.g. on the internet) might help.

So I don’t see a problem. Any (fundamental) proposition which is said to be compatible with TUB must be related to concepts and statements in TUB. If it isn’t, then it’s probably BS. If it is, then it might be true. Any such claim should be made such that anyone can check this..


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TUB is in the same sense as any historical, religious book whose mortal authors are deceased, and had not left a guide to interpret their respective writing the way they were intended originally. TUB just like the Bible is open to interpretation, basically.


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I have a fundamentally (haha) different perspective than Jim's or kayanyah's (and similar to Bart's): The UB is a book of both facts and truths. The facts describe the reality of what IS and the truths describe relationship of mind to those facts. The facts are not subject to interpretation and they are not metaphor or riddle with priestly keys to unlock, they are facts. Page 1, line 1 is a fact. Last page, last line is a fact. And every page in between is filled with facts. God is not metaphorical or interpretive. God is fact. Paradise is too. As is TA, Trinity, Creator Sons, etc. What's to interpret? True the book is a translated presentation in a native tongue. This Revelation is not inspired nor of human origin. Is to believe so fundamentalist? Then I am one. But who cares? Not me and not the UB. Reality does not require our belief, or understanding, or even awareness....and those do not change reality....only our perception of reality and our relationship to it and our experience in it is relative, partial, and interpretive.

The authors of the UB are not dead. They were witnesses and participants of that which they authored. They know whereof they speak. That is if you are a fundamentalist like me who believes this claim. Truth is the experience of reality or real-ization and spiritization and soul construction by free will mind in time and space. That is very interpretive and individualized.

But the UB is clear that facts are less important by far than experience in love, truth (relative), beauty, and goodness. Love and faith bring progress to the tadpole....not facts or beliefs. There is nothing in the UB that is vital to either progress or survival. But on Mansonia, all will have the same realities to guide their progress. The UB is a gift to Urantian seekers of truth to give facts and reality to assist and reduce error. Usually we have a Prince, Material Son and Daughter, and a Teacher Son - all on-planet with great schools of both facts and truths. Such a gift, such a gift. Are you guys reading the same book?


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Hi Bart, you have given me my first red-flag

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Either the book is what it claims to be (revelation) or it is not.


Just like Christians saying either the Bible is all true or the whole thing is not.

They say you can't pick and choose which parts you want to believe and through away the rest.

Please! our human history is filled with errors and no matter where the information comes from we have a hand in it getting from source to paper thus human error, not to mention the simple Fact the no 2 people will interpret any given paragraph the same way... which is why we have so many different churches reading the same book yet disagreeing on it's exact interpretation and content.

Human hands have been from the very start involve with the Urantia book, so no matter how much loving intent was placed upon the efforts to make the book accurate it is still going to have some errors.

And as to interpretations no matter how much you want to believe that your interpretation is fact just because the way it is written in the book tells you that is the only way to understand it..is the grounds for human error right from the get-go.

If what Fanofvan and Bart are saying is true than we should give Gabriel of Saddona, as well as all the Channeling Movements they props for having the insight of seeing exactly what is in the book...Yes?


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Interesting topic - thanks J.Barry.

I'm fairly fundamentalist, although I allow that there could potentially be errors due to human contact. For me, if there are (problematic) errors, then it isn't reliable, end of story.

And I do agree that people can differ in their interpretation. But I don't think there'll ever be such a range of interpretation of the UB as there currently is of the bible. It's just clearer. Maybe in a few hundred years' time, when the English language has evolved, it might not be so clear, and interpretations will multiply. But at the moment, we don't have that problem so much. So what's to disagree on, and what's there to think that the book isn't reliable?

kiwi


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Jim - what do priests, completionists, and revisionists have to do with it? The text clearly says in black letter that all that is needed is within...each. Who needs a medium? Or a priest to unlock the mysteries with their specialness? There are but two forms of revelation; epochal and personal. Yours is not for me and mine is not for you. We must each find truth and live truth. And only faith and love are the truths required for soul survival. Not the UB. That is if you believe the UB. I do. And I don't believe Gabe or Ham or any other one who raises themselves up as "interpreters" or mediums to truth or celestials or God. Truth needs personal experience and interpretation/application. Facts are facts. The UB is filled with both. As it says many times throughout. If you believe it. Which does not matter until you do. And no one can, or should be able to, convince any other that it is true. That's UB fundamentalism.

It took years for me to come to believe this book is what it claims to be. But I believed many truths within the UB from first reading. Those kept me in the book. So many confirmations of prior beliefs and truths presented. So many dots connected and Ah Has! Most don't have the stamina. They prefer being fed milk toast by priests. Or going flower to flower, which I also did for many years in my search for truth. Truth is everywhere. As is love and faith. Facts are far more rare indeed. And quite helpful in perspective. And it is also helpful to share both the facts and truths presented with other readers and students and believers (3 distinct groups). Who have you heard here say any must believe anything? We discuss the words and what they mean to each. This religious study helps some in truths and/or in text for their own personalization of experience. What mortal mind is worthy to complete or revise an epochal? But then one must believe it is epochal to think so? No, I didn't believe in mediumship long before TUB found me. It doesn't take much truth experience to abandon priests nor does it require the UB. That was just another confirmation within for me. The bible is filled with truths too. As is the Tao. And actually, most Christians are not literalists anymore. Even half of southern Baptists are no longer literalists. The Spirit of Truth works with everyone who cares to listen. And regardless of which book lies in their lap. Another confirmation by the UB of a prior belief for me.


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Jim - Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. You say a "fundamentalist approach" and "fundamentalist interpretation". I have been in many a study group and conference and am on 3 forums and read some Facebook sites and visited many UB related sites on the www. Seems like lots of interpretive diversity there and here. Not sure what you're meaning. Now I claim to be, fundamentally, a believer in the claim that the UB is authored by celestials and is the 5th Epochal Revelation. This means I also believe the facts presented within to describe universe reality.

But truth? How can I or any other "interpret" that for any other? Fundamentally, the UB says this cannot be true. So how could a UB fundamentalist, believer, claim such authority or purity of mind? That claim would be the antithesis of the entire text. And no UB fundamentalist would claim that there exists knowledge or facts critical to survivorship either....within the UB or any other text. That which is critical is encircuited within each mind. The pilot whispers to all as does the Spirit of Truth. We are taught that love and faith are the only truths required for spirit progress and spirit fruit.

Fundamentalist UBers would also clearly recognize that religion is a personal and individualized experience and not subject to creeds, dogma, ceremonies, symbols, rites, or any human authority or intercessor. So, perhaps you could explain the issue more and perhaps provide examples? What does UB fundamentalism mean to you?


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J. Barry wrote:
Hi Bart, you have given me my first red-flag
Quote:
Either the book is what it claims to be (revelation) or it is not.
[...]

If what Fanofvan and Bart are saying is true than we should give Gabriel of Saddona, as well as all the Channeling Movements they props for having the insight of seeing exactly what is in the book...Yes?
Hi JB, Either the book is what it claims to be (revelation) or it is not. This doesn’t mean that any personal interpretation of TUB statements is necessarily correct. It only means that the TUB statements should be correct. Such fundamentalism is supported by the book since it claims to be written revelation..


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The following sums up the book to me....


1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence,
gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.


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Agreed. :)


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Brother kahanyah Said 8)

'' The following sums up the book to me....''

(42.2) 2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.

AMEN 8)

I Also Agree

... '' but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe.'' :idea:

And
'' That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.
'' :idea:

(42.3) 2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.


7. Divine Truth and Beauty

(42.2) 2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.

(42.3) 2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

(42.4) 2:7.3 Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

(42.5) 2:7.4 The false science of materialism would sentence mortal man to become an outcast in the universe. Such partial knowledge is potentially evil; it is knowledge composed of both good and evil. Truth is beautiful because it is both replete and symmetrical. When man searches for truth, he pursues the divinely real.

(42.6) 2:7.5 Philosophers commit their gravest error when they are misled into the fallacy of abstraction, the practice of focusing the attention upon one aspect of reality and then of pronouncing such an isolated aspect to be the whole truth. The wise philosopher will always look for the creative design which is behind, and pre-existent to, all universe phenomena. The creator thought invariably precedes creative action.

(42.7) 2:7.6 Intellectual self-consciousness can discover the beauty of truth, its spiritual quality, not only by the philosophic consistency of its concepts, but more certainly and surely by the unerring response of the ever-present Spirit of Truth. Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out; it can be lived. Disappointment and sorrow attend upon error because, not being a reality, it cannot be realized in experience. Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.

(42.8]
2:7.7 The eternal quest is for unification, for divine coherence. The far-flung physical universe coheres in the Isle of Paradise; the intellectual universe coheres in the God of mind, the Conjoint Actor; the spiritual universe is coherent in the personality of the Eternal Son. But the isolated mortal of time and space coheres in God the Father through the direct relationship between the indwelling Thought Adjuster and the Universal Father. Man’s Adjuster is a fragment of God and everlastingly seeks for divine unification; it coheres with, and in, the Paradise Deity of the First Source and Center.

(43.1) 2:7.8 The discernment of supreme beauty is the discovery and integration of reality: The discernment of the divine goodness in the eternal truth, that is ultimate beauty. Even the charm of human art consists in the harmony of its unity.


Last edited by coop on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:09 am +0000, edited 4 times in total.

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... '' but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe.''

Uh ... WHAT IS :arrow:
'' the philosophy of the universe.'' :?:


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coop wrote:
... '' but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe.''

Uh ... WHAT IS :arrow:
'' the philosophy of the universe.'' :?:


I believe the revelator is referring to "Cosmic philosophy," one of the language mediums that help shape our ever expanding understanding of the universe.


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''I believe the revelator is referring to "Cosmic philosophy," one of the language mediums that help shape our ever expanding understanding of the universe.''

"Cosmic philosophy," :?:

WHAT IS "Cosmic philosophy," :?:

MOTA :?:


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