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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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Hi all:

I do see the light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to science is the past 30 years. Urantia science is gradually being recognized by science. Yes, the Great Attractor (Paradise), The Great Wall of galaxies, new evidence of for the toroidal topology of the universe and the electron. There is progress happening and we who accept TUB as revelation can watch and marvel.

I don't mean to be harsh with Einstein, but he has been placed on such a pedestal that we must bring him down to the level of other fallible humans. He did not have the knowledge of the expanding universe that came about with Hubble in the 1920s. At the end of his life he well knew due to his intelligence that his original theories were not correct, but the world had their scientific idol and they would not allow him to critical of even his own theories.

I was not talking about science in general, only about RT. A lot has happened since then. Coop mentioned the big bounce. The cycling universe is out there and in great controversy. Of course we Urantians recognize this as true and expansion of the universe eventually bounces back into contraction, only to bounce again in a billion years to expansion. This would destroy the second law of thermodynamic! Our scientists have to give up some sacred laws of science to accept that one. We must accept, adapt, and progress. The watch-word of the universe is progress.

Regards, Louis.


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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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loucol wrote:
General Relativity has us believe that mass CREATES gravity by warping space.



The paradigm shift will come when science understands what gravity actually is and how it works in the micro. I have heard it said that who ever can demonstrate gravity's existence in the atomic and subatomic world would have a 'no-belly'. :smile: The science of TUB spells it out...our local gravity is created by vortexes of 'emergent energy and ultimatons' (stuff). A vortex of emergent energy and 100 ultimatons collapses and condenses to become an electron; two electrons join together to produce an isotropic encapsulation, a spheroidal vortex, continuing to collapse and pull in more stuff...the nucleus of the atom. That is gravity! Gravity 'is' mass!

It works the same in the macro. All of the objects that we see in the cosmos are the result of vortexes of this stuff (a combination of emergent energy and ultimatons, dark energy and dark matter, the Higgs Field, quark-gluon plasma, aether are all the same thing, it's just stuff,we don't know what it is). So when we see a nebula, for example, we can only see about 5% of what is going on. The condensation /gravity of 'stuff' becomes so powerful that it explodes into the mass and the matters that we can see but remains unseen. We have, however, been able to hear the 'stuff' as it becomes...CBR.


Atomic ignition occurs when a vortex/black hole, of stuff comes to life. At this point it is a gravitational entity pulling in and feeding on 'stuff'; growing, changing and combining with other vortexes. The movement of the stuff caused by the incessant pull on stuff by this gravity from the atoms of the earth is what our bodies feel as we move around the earth. Every atom in my body is pulling in stuff to fuel their tiny fires, this is the gravity of my body. The amount of 'stuff' being pulled into my body is tiny compared to the amount of stuff being pulled into all of the atoms of the earth between me and the center of the earth; earths gravity is pushing my gravity toward the center of the earth, unless I am in free fall, then my stuff is caught in the 'pull' of the earths stuff

Boat on a river thought experiment: If my boat is just floating down stream I am being 'pulled' by the water fall; If I am falling, my gravity is moving with earths gravity and I am being pulled down, weightless.

If I switch on a motor and cut across the current, the water is now 'pushing' against my boat; If I am falling and I deploy a parachute, earths gravity is now 'pushing' against my gravity.

If I attach my boat, front and back, to a cable across the river by pulley and tether and then use a rudder to angle across the current, the the water 'pushing ' on the rudder will 'push' my boat across the river; If I go on a 'zip line' my gravity is pushed sideways by earths gravity.

gray


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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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Hi gray:

TUB states the gravity is the sole control of matter- energy. Paradise is the source of all material reality. Paradise gravity is a pull on all energy -matter

When you state "Gravity 'is' mass", I have to disagree. Mass is created through the actions of the Unqualified Absolute, a space extension of Paradise, and becomes responsive to the control of Paradise Gravity.

Mass cannot control itself.

I am fond of some of the Phi vortex physics of Daniel Winter, but only qualifiedly so. Any "theory" that excludes Paradise is ultimately doomed.

You are stating lots of ideas in your post but I would like to see how you would tie it all in to a center of creation and control, Paradise. TUB has lots to say here. Paradise is the source of both gravity and energy-matter.

Regards, Louis


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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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loucol wrote:
You are stating lots of ideas in your post but I would like to see how you would tie it all in to a center of creation and control, Paradise. TUB has lots to say here. Paradise is the source of both gravity and energy-matter.


Hi Louis, thank you for your comments. :D

What I understand from the TUB and 62 years of life on this planet, 62 trips around the sun 8) , is that there is a geographical center of infinity from which all energy flows...paradise. I have no idea how paradise gravity works but somehow it is controlled by paradise. The puissant energy being projected out from paradise has to be traveling faster than the speed of light because it is the creator of light.

"Ultimatonic Rays. The assembly of energy into the minute spheres of the ultimatons occasions vibrations in the content of space which are dicernible and measurable. And long before physicists ever discover the ultimaton, they will undoubtedly detect the phenomena of these rays as they shower in upon Urantia. These short and powerful rays represent the initial activity or the ultimatons as they are slowed down to that point where they veer towards the electronic organization of matter. As the ultimatons aggregate into electrons, condensation occurs with a consequent storage of energy." This slowing down,veering,condensation, aggregation, and storage of energy can be only one thing; A vortex, which is the beginning of 'local gravity'. In other words paradise gravity electronically organizes and controls 'local gravity'.

Roger Penrose showed that the inward collapse of matter predicted by Einstein's equations was not only theoretically possible in certain cases; it was an inevitable consequence of Einstein's mathematics that these collapses must happen, and must end up with all the matter involved crushed down into a singularity. This is the model for the electronic organization of matter and the definition of gravity.

"And long before physicists ever discover the ultimaton, they will undoubtedly detect the phenomena of these rays as they shower in upon Urantia."

In 1965 Bell Laboratories detected untimatonic rays with their 'horn antenna'.
In 2012 scientists at CERN discovered the ultimaton with their 'LHC'. When they boiled it all down, what was left was ultimatons.

"You might try to visualize 35,000,000 degrees of heat, in association with certain gravity pressures, as the electronic boiling point. Under such pressure and at such temperatures all atoms are degraded and broken up into their electronic and ancestral components; even the electrons and other associations of ultimatons may be broken up, but the suns are not able to degrade the ultimatons." Nor can the LHC,

gray


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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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Hi gray:

I would not even venture to guess the true nature and mechanisms of gravity. But that does not stop modern theoretical physicists from telling us what to think and provide a mathematical construct to back it up, one that they don't even understand.

I respect Penrose but he is a mathematician first, and a theoretician by extension. I have made my case against Relativity (SR andGR) throughout these two threads over the last 6 weeks and I will not repeat them here, but I will discredit each by these next two arguments.

You mention faster than light energy flows or projections from Paradise, and I too can find many places where TUB contradicts the constant speed of light postulate. Well, this is the primary pillar upon which SR stands. Without this postulate of the background constancy of light velocity, the theory implodes. The transforms are merely a useful tool to deal with (correct) time delays associated distance time-space distortions.

General Relativity proposes a model for gravity where mass itself distorts surrounding space-time to create a gravity well. The warping of space is what causes this attractive force. The problem here is very plain when one considers that mass 'contains' space. If the theory holds, then mass would also warp itself, thereby increasing its own mass and causing the mass to instantaneously increase to infinity! This kills this model instantly. The math is no better. Notice that Einstein's Field equations have no impulse to motion, no force. OK if you already have motion and that motion is perpetual. Not OK if you have to put something in motion and keep it moving. It a great wonder why physics has perpetuated this obvious disaster of a theory. There are so many other problems but I'll not beat a dead horse.

Mainstream physics has used the 1965 background radiation at 3 deg kelvin to account for the echos of a Big Bang event from a singularity. You surmise that these are ultimatonic rays and this may be the case. Can you be sure that these findings do not represent the force-charge of pervaded space interacting with the unassociated ultimatons in the space drift? Cosmic rays? I don't know

I am reserving any opinion on the findings of CERN. They are not sure of what they are finding. Consider that the unassociated ultimations do not respond to linear gravity, only to Paradise gravity. They have just been sitting there, in a drift, awaiting the Unqualified Absolute to initiate their destiny in becoming the building blocks of matter. I am not sure what to expect except that it will probably be something unexpected.

Thanks for you reply.

Regards, Louis


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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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Hi Louis, :D

I only have 'faith' in Paradise and Paradise Gravity.

I see local gravity in an unexpected way and I think I can prove it.

The 'well' of local gravity is a 'spheroidal vortex'. This is the joining together of two vortexes at their tips. All of the energy being condensed by the two vortexes is trapped where the tips are joined, resulting in an isotropic encapsulation pulling in energy from all directions; the stronger the pull the stronger the gravity.

The air molecules in a tornado push down to form the funnel cloud which grows with virtually no resistance until it hits the ground where it can't grow any longer. The air being pushed down bounces off the earth and forms a dust devil rising up around the outside of the vortex.

Imagine, from a bird's eye view, looking down on two F5 tornadoes; one spinning clockwise and one spinning counterclockwise. They would repel each other, bounce off of each other at their tops and their tips would come into contact and join together because they are spinning in the same direction. When these vortexes are joined and locked into each other; they are pushing air toward and into each other creating a sphere of vortical energy at the two tips...A gravity well!

gray


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Hi gray:

I think that you might really enjoy reading the science of Walter Russell. You are describing virtually the exact same thing he does in his theories. Much of my thinking on motion is a combination of TUB and Russell. They correlate quite nicely. Add a sprinkle of Phi physics for flavor.

Try looking for the pull of gravity in the radius changes in the phi spiral vortex. Notice the quantum jumps in radius that produce a continuous imploding spiral that can expand in a quantum bounce. This is very interesting and unites the concepts of the discrete and continuous, one of the unsolved mysteries of physics right in plain site.

BTW, I think that in the final analysis faith is all we've got, and all that we need. It is truly that greatest gift of the Father.

Regards, Louis


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Hi gray,

I am just curious. In your illustration with tornado, would not the earth’s gravity play a role in it? Would the result be the same in outer space?

Ysmael


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loucol wrote:
BTW, I think that in the final analysis faith is all we've got, and all that we need. It is truly that greatest gift of the Father.


Hi Louis, Thank you for the introduction to Walter Russell, I'll check him out.

I agree that faith is a great gift from the Father but to my mind love is the greatest gift of all. It is up to us to use our faith to make sure that love survives on earth. If we don't stop this fossil fuel madness soon we won't have a chance, on this planet, to become the moral and loving society that God expects.

Phi spiral geometry, Golden Spirals, have been a huge part of my thinking for a long time. The Golden Section expressed by the Great Pyramid of Khufu, I believe, can be used to create golden spirals of gravity. That is my experiment.

gray


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YSMAEL wrote:
Hi gray,

I am just curious. In your illustration with tornado, would not the earth’s gravity play a role in it? Would the result be the same in outer space?

Ysmael


Hi Ysmael, Of course two tornadoes could not spin in opposite directions in the same hemisphere on earth. I just use tornadoes for ease of imagination. But to answer your question more specifically, two atmospheric vortexes joined together creating a spheroidal vortex will create its own gravity the same as a spheroidal vortex of dark energy and dark matter will.

gray


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Hi gray:

Perhaps you would be closer to your goal of energy from the quantum vacuum if instead of equating mass with gravity you could conceive of gravity as 'control'. I think of mass as an acceleration and its control as gravity, or the next derivative, an accelerated acceleration.

TUB states that gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.

The ultimaton has Paradise as its nucleus. Paradise gravity controls the motion of the ultimaton from its center.

That is why earlier I had disagreed with you regarding G = M. Although this is technically true, there is an issue of primacy. There is no mass without gravity. Gravity is primal. Mass is not real until it is controlled by fluctuating gravity, the rhythmic pull or jerk that gives mass it's reality. The first two orders do not exist. We enter into the reality of the physical when we have the effects of the third order. Velocity and simple acceleration are not real, only variable acceleration is real. Simple rotation is not enough, we need the spiral of the vortex that has respiration.

I don't mean to be nit picky here but I think this is important because thus far I have seen this concept as a vital missing link in physics and the vortex is illustrative. There is no simple rotation here. This vortex motion is complex, logarithmic, and cyclic. Its motion combines the three transcendental constants of the universe, Pi, Phi, and e (Euler's number). All three are infinite expressions. Understand the tornado and you understand all motion.

Regards, Louis


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loucol wrote:
There is no mass without gravity.


Hi Louis, thanks for responding. I'm trying to understand as I go along.

From what I have read in TUB about gravity, Paradise gravity controls and creates linear or local gravity... it controls it all. Local gravity has no control over Paradise gravity but has complete control over mass and the matters.

It can now be proven that the ultimaton exists. the ultimaton is the beginning of local gravity and it is also the smallest mass. It is literally the building block of the matters, I guess emergent primal energy is the mortar. So, if the ultimaton is the beginning of gravity and also the beginning of mass I don't see any difference. It seems to be a distinction without a difference. "There is no mass without gravity". I agree but there is no gravity without mass either because just as soon as you have gravity you have mass.

Emergent energy in vortical motion = Gravity = Mass. (E + V' ) = G = M.

The exciting thing is that real soon science will take an interest in 'spheroidal vortexes' and want to study them. The first step will be to create a machine that will create a true vortex and then put two vortexes together and watch the show. You can add more vortexes pumping in more energy for more fire works.

gray


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Hi gray:

I'm glad you are engaged in this discussion because you make me think further into what I think is a real distinction with a real difference.

Linear gravity is a consequence of organized matter. This is the gravity we can measure because it is the equivalence of mass. Paradise gravity is a precursor to matter. It originates at the center-nucleus of the ultimatons and is responsible for the vortical motions of the particle. It controls this pattern of motion from within, its center of motion.

Linear gravity is then the mutual attraction of matter that is a consequence of these motions that both radiate and gravitate (huddling proclivity).

I think TUB makes a distinction between Paradise gravity and linear gravity, as they are both functioning in matter. But, first came Paradise gravity. With regards to mass and linear gravity, I would agree that it is the proverbial chicken or the egg.

I have it on good authority that there are quite a few out there working on the vortex physics concepts, but we may not live on Urantia long enough to see it through to fruition. There are to many sinister forces aligned against it. Imagine the economic upheaval when cheap, infinitely abundant energy is available to all! An evolutional transition would be wise to avoid an economic collapse. All transitions are wrought with turmoil and anguish but I remain hopeful for the planet and my progeny.

Regards, Louis


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gray wrote:
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.....two atmospheric vortexes joined together creating a spheroidal vortex will create its own gravity the same as a spheroidal vortex of dark energy and dark matter will.


Though your reply did not directly answer my question, I'm just curious again. How did you know there are spheroidal vortexes in dark energy and dark matter? I did not read anything of that in the UB. Maybe, I just missed it.

Ysmael


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:roll: :roll:
loucol wrote:
I have it on good authority that there are quite a few out there working on the vortex physics concepts, but we may not live on Urantia long enough to see it through to fruition. There are to many sinister forces aligned against it. Imagine the economic upheaval when cheap, infinitely abundant energy is available to all! An evolutional transition would be wise to avoid an economic collapse. All transitions are wrought with turmoil and anguish but I remain hopeful for the planet and my progeny.


Thank you for your kind words Louis, I am happy to be here! :biggrin:

I think we can pull this paradigm shift off without a big shakeup in the world economy, in fact we will be able to lay down our weapons and stop fighting over oil. That would be a big, good first step toward peace on earth. I, like you, am hopeful, but lately I find myself being optimistic that mankind has reached a point where it can wake up. :roll:

gray


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