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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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Hi Boom:
I would add to what I have already said by trying to clarify some terms. I do not think its is important to distinguish so severely between creating and projecting. Projecting is a word used in TUB many times. To project is to extend. One can only extend of ones self. Thought is always creative. God extends Himself in His Creative thought. Projecting has optical connotations as in how a projector at the movies projects the image onto the screen. I am sure that TUB authors knew of our movies in 1934. They use our familiarity with this term to improve our understanding.

We are LITERALLY created in God's Image. We are the extensions of His imaginings. We are the thought images of His imaginings. So I would say that it is best not to stumble over semantic distinctions between words such as created and projected. God creates by projecting Himself. I've have found it helpful to think of Creation as the Thought verb and projection as the action verb.

The true sequence is; Creative Thought (Father), Relationship (Son), Act of Projection (Spirit). This is the process in the physical, intellectual and spiritual realities.

Paper 189.1. "Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morantia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?"

Regards, Louis.



Not sure where its says in the urantia book that we are created in gods image, maybe you can provide a quote. The u.b seems to indicate that God is nothing at all like a human being. His spirit indwells which allows us to be the literal children of god, but there is nothing in the u.b that suggests we are anything like God himself.

Also there is a huge difference between projection and creation. I understand that it was the Master Spirits who actually created Morontia substance. It would seem to me that the creation of finite matter has been delegated to lower beings because god always delegates as much power, responsibility and reality to lower beings as he possibly can. I think its natural to assume that God does all the heavy lifting but the u.b points out that he as often as he possibly can will delegate to lower beings whenever possible and finite molecules seem to be the jurisdiction of lower beings.

The u.b does say that spirit substance is actually a unity subtance, not sure I recall it talking about its primary function as projector. It would seem that matter is just a vessel as stated by this 'skeleton of morontia substance'. Why would god need to project a skeleton? So the deeper we go is morontia and the u.b says that morontia is the creation of the Master Spirits. So that is not a projection of God. So we have to go to Paradise and no where do I see the u.b talking about that as a Projection of God, but a creation expressive of the individuality of God. The difference between a creation that expresses god and a literal projection from god is huge. The u.b goes onto explain that Spirit substance comes from God as is the source of all substance, but that he sends forth this substance out and lets the lower members of diety transmute it. I am sure it is within Gods power to project this substance, but it looks like to me he is letting other beings have their hand in the creation of lower realitys especially the physical for their own benefit.

I just do not see molecules being indwelled by the spirit of god as a human mind is. Indeed the Thought Adjuster projects God into our minds :).

I think the ultimate question here comes down to, is all spirit substance a projection from god? Is all Spirit God? And the answer is obviously no. Spirit substance is not innately Divine, that was proven to many beings during the conclusion of the Lucifer Rebellion.

The other question: Is Paradise God? Of coarse not. Is Paradise a creative expression of the I AM? Yes. There is a huge difference between creation and projection and I am sure the revelators chose their words carefully in using the word 'creation'.

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Hi Boom:
I invite you to input the words 'projected' and 'image' in the TruthBook 'Search Urantia' site.

Again you are correct to say that all is not God, but you can say that all IS OF God. He is the uncaused cause. He is not His creations, that is true, but all proceeds from the Father.

Regards, Louis.


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YSMAEL,
My question for you would be, if not at the nucleus of every ultimaton, then how many, and which ones?


I am not sure I understand your question. How many what? If you are asking about Paradise, I have already stated previously that there is only one Paradise and it is at the center of the Master universe. It is not ubiquitous as you said and it is not at the center of every ultimaton. The Isle of Paradise is the biggest material (thing or no thing) in the universe of universes. At least that's how I understand what the UB is saying about Paradise.


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YSMAEL:
There is only one Paradise.

Paradise is the largest object in the master universe and lies at its center.

The ultimaton has Paradise as its nucleus.

TUB states all three of the above statements to be true. How?

I'm just trying to reconcile these facts and see a situation where they can all be true.

Since we are told that Paradise is spaceless and timeless, I cannot see where size in terms of dimensions factors in. Paradise is both infinitely large and infinitely small, and everything in between.

I can see where the center of the ultimaton and the center of the universe can be the same infinity. Infinity is everywhere and everything outside of the finite. The 'center' must, therefore, be ALL centers.

This takes a severe stretch of the mind but I see no other plausible explanation. We must allow our finite minds to glimpse at our infinite TA in order to comprehend this one.

Regards, Louis


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YSMAEL:
There is only one Paradise.

Paradise is the largest object in the master universe and lies at its center.

The ultimaton has Paradise as its nucleus.

TUB states all three of the above statements to be true. How?

I'm just trying to reconcile these facts and see a situation where they can all be true.


I don't have problem reconciling the three statements above. To me the statement "The ultimaton has Paradise as its nucleus" does not mean that ultimaton has its own center. It merely means that an "unassociated or free ultimaton" revolves around the same one Paradise at the center of the master universe because it is in its pre-electronic stages and not yet responsive to linear gravity. And Paradise is not infinitely large or infinitely small. It is also not dimensionless. It has shape which is ellipsoid and it is almost flat. It has upper and nether surface.

(119.3) 11:2.2 In form Paradise differs from the inhabited space bodies: it is not spherical. It is definitely ellipsoid, being one-sixth longer in the north-south diameter than in the east-west diameter. The central Isle is essentially flat, and the distance from the upper surface to the nether surface is one tenth that of the east-west diameter.


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YSMAEL,
We simply have a different interpretation of that statement regarding the nucleus of the ultimaton. Remember, however, that you rethought your original position. The ultimaton does spin; it has rotational motion and so must have a center of rotation.

The Earth 'rotates' about its center axis and 'revolves' around the Sun.

I say that Paradise has no dimensions because TUB does not refer them. TUB only speaks of the 'proportions' of Paradise and avoids saying anything about dimensionality. This I think is an important distinction. I don't see how Paradise can exist outside of space and have the measurements of space. It must be zero dimensional. It must also be infinite dimensional, but these are not definite dimensions. These are not finite dimensions.

Perhaps others have an even different interpretation.

Regards, Louis.


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Just some quotes about gods actual presence outside of Havona and Paradise.

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Otherwise, outside of Paradise and the central universe of Havona, everything pertaining to God is limited by the evolutionary presence of the Supreme, conditioned by the eventuating presence of the Ultimate, and co-ordinated by the three existential Absolutes — Deity, Universal, and Unqualified. And God’s presence is thus limited because such is the will of God.


This quote just sort of goes with what I was saying about the Supreme Being, how gods literal presence in finite reality is threw the supreme being. The u.b also says that we have our literal being within the Supreme Being. This is IMHO the likely method used by god to physically interact with material worlds.

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(46.2) 3:1.10 Concerning God’s presence in a planet, system, constellation, or a universe, the degree of such presence in any creational unit is a measure of the degree of the evolving presence of the Supreme Being: It is determined by the en masse recognition of God and loyalty to him on the part of the vast universe organization, running down to the systems and planets themselves. Therefore it is sometimes with the hope of conserving and safeguarding these phases of God’s precious presence that, when some planets (or even systems) have plunged far into spiritual darkness, they are in a certain sense quarantined, or partially isolated from intercourse with the larger units of creation. And all this, as it operates on Urantia, is a spiritually defensive reaction of the majority of the worlds to save themselves, as far as possible, from suffering the isolating consequences of the alienating acts of a headstrong, wicked, and rebellious minority.

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Louis wrote:
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I say that Paradise has no dimensions because TUB does not refer them. TUB only speaks of the 'proportions' of Paradise and avoids saying anything about dimensionality. This I think is an important distinction. I don't see how Paradise can exist outside of space and have the measurements of space. It must be zero dimensional. It must also be infinite dimensional, but these are not definite dimensions. These are not finite dimensions.


TUB did refer them as dimensions.

11:2.2 In form Paradise differs from the inhabited space bodies: it is not spherical. It is definitely ellipsoid, being one-sixth longer in the north-south diameter than in the east-west diameter. The central Isle is essentially flat, and the distance from the upper surface to the nether surface is one tenth that of the east-west diameter.

11:2.3 These differences in dimensions, taken in connection with its stationary status and the greater out-pressure of force-energy at the north end of the Isle, make it possible to establish absolute direction in the master universe.


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Hi YSMAEL:

You Are correct. What I meant to say is that Paradise in non-dimensional, not that it has no dimensions. By that I mean mathematically dimensional as opposed to directional dimensions. A fine distinction but I think an important one. Since Paradise if outside of space it is not restricted by space and can be anywhere that is not spatial. In fact it is everywhere that is not spatial. I suspect that the nucleus of the ultimations are not spatial.

Regards, Louis.


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Paradise is also material substance as already mentioned. So I imagine that it etleast has form. It certainly is not spirit. It definitely is not god.

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No disagreement here, Boom

Regards, Louis


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 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
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Hi All:

I started this thread by opineing that Relativity is not compatible withTUB.

To conclude this argument with a summary of my views I will take a very simple approach in logic that anyone could easily follow.

Special Relativity has no absolute reference frame for motion other than to state that light speed is constant. This must be questioned in light of our Truth that only God can claim this.

Motion cannot evaluate itself, which is what SR asks us to do. Only something that is NOT in motion can evaluate motion and be its Source. SR denies Paradise.

General Relativity has us believe that mass CREATES gravity by warping space. If this were true then mass would warp the space it contains and instantly become an infinite mass!

Again, this theory denies Paradise.

TUB Tells us that the meaning of life is adaptability, its value lies in its progresability.

In 2005, SR turned 100. GR will turn 100 in 2015. These theories as concepts have stagnated progress for too long and are on life support. It is time to pull the plug and put it out of its misery. It is time to move on; adapt and progress.

Regards, Louis.


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Yes Louis. But even though we may know/understand that ultimate reality (Paradise) is not compatible with SR/GR, I don’t think there will be a new theory that includes relativity (and quantum mechanics for that matter) any time soon. Up till then, we are stuck with relativity theory.

After all, relativity theory is but a mathematical model of large scale motion and material gravity in time and space, that just happens to make very accurate predictions about the macroscopic behaviour of observable universe phenomena, which is in itself remarkable. And as such, it will remain a very useful tool; just like Newton’s equations of motion remains a useful tool.

I agree however that absolute reality is something completely different from a system of nonlinear, coupled differential equations such as Einstein’s general relativity theory..


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Any Thoughts on The New Theory On The Block
The Big Bounce ?
As Related To The UPapers etc ?

http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/new-the ... big-bounce

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... big-bounce


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Again, this theory denies Paradise.


I think modern science in general, does not deny Paradise, only that it has not been confirmed yet though it may have been detected. The Great Attractor might be the Paradise in TUB.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... f-the.html

15:3.3 Observation of the so-called Milky Way discloses the comparative increase in Orvonton stellar density when the heavens are viewed in one direction, while on either side the density diminishes; the number of stars and other spheres decreases away from the chief plane of our material superuniverse. When the angle of observation is propitious, gazing through the main body of this realm of maximum density, you are looking toward the residential universe and the center of all things.


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