Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:14 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 490 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 33  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Hi Bart:
This is simply incredible! This little 'snowman' has always intrigued me and now that you have made that connection with imbedded spirals I can't help but see the 'pattern'. If TUB tells us about the motions of space and we can say that that motion follows a spiral pattern then we have come a little closer to understanding.

TUB tells us that we worship God because He IS, and secondly because He is in us, and thirdly because we are in Him. I'm trying to wrap my brain around that one; trying to come up with a visual that can illustrate how God and man can be simultaneously inside one another! The Infinte and the finite coexisting.

TUB states that Paradise is the geographic center of infinity and has no location in space. The only conceivable geometry must be hyperbolic. The hyperboloid in rotation is a toroidal.

But not just a torus , but an expanding and contracting torus. The spiral is totally analogous to a rotating and simultaneously expanding/contracting sphere, or hyper sphere. An expanding and contracting cube (space) is a hyper cube or tasseract. This is precisely what I see in a three dimensional Phi spiral as depicted spiraling in the squares (cubes) of Phi rectangle.

Check out the diagram of this combination of spiral inside the Phi ratio rectangle. Notice how the radius 'jumps' by Phi ( The Divine Ratio) every 90 deg arc. These are 'Quantum' changes.
Now try to imagine the equation that would describe that motion in 3-d. First you would have to contend with three Transcendental constants, Phi, Pi and e. These are numbers that cannot be 'defined'. They are Infinite in their expressions. I really cannot imagine anyone short of God Himself that can satisfy that relationship. It requires being able to count to infinity. You are correct that a GUT is very unlikely.

So, we have the finite, created by the Infinite, yet able to coexist because of the hyperbolic topology of the Master Universe. Cool to the Max!

Anything short of Infinity must be incomplete, indeterminate, and make room for Free Will.

I speculate that the concentric rings of TUB may very well depict a two dimensional representation of concentric spheres that when viewed dynamically are spinning spheres that expand, in quantum jumps, and similarly contract. In other words, a hyper sphere. As yet another pattern that we see from the macrocosmos to possibly the microcosmos.

Leave it to God to create the most perfect Holodeck for us to live. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Regards, Louis.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
'' Fascinating''
Spock 8)

Thanks ...
Here are but a few Examples ...
ø PHI: The Golden Ratio or Golden Section
(In Nature, Art, Science and Religion)

http://www.miqel.com/fractals_math_patt ... olden.html

Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Hi coop:
Many thanks for your visual. I still cannot attach, quote or do all of those fancy things experienced bloggers are skilled at. Old dog, new tricks problem but I would tell those inclined to do so for me like you have.

Bart gave me an opening to address mataphysical issues in a previous post and since TUB tells us that Urantian metaphysics is all messed up (I'm paraphrasing), I thought it would be appropriate to begin a discussion on that topic as it relates to this thread.

Jesus said to Ganid in Alexandria in a discourse on reality that, "The source of universe reality is the Infinite". So let's start our discussion at the source. God encompasses both the infinitely large as well as the infinitely small. Space is subabsolute and therefore cannot contain the Infinite God. Therefore, only a realm of no space and no time can be the House of God. Anything less will not do. We are told that this House is called Paradise. It is isolated from space and time for this reason.

We can now see that the source of all resides in a realm of zero dimensions. Dimensions are a feature of space and time only. Note that TUB never gives us the dimensions of Paradise, only the proportions. Thus, only ZERO can contain the ONE, who is INFINITE.

Paradise is the center of all things AND the center of everything because TUB tells us that the ultimaton has Paradise as its nucleus.

All motion in the universe as referenced and has its base in Paradise is Absolute.

This absolute motion is spiral as previously argued on this thread.

All spiral motion is accelerated motion; the acceleration of gravity plus the angular momentum of circular motion.

Any science that does not acknowledge this is not based on reality.

Linear notions of any kind are simply NOT REAL.

Every physical reality, that which is in motion, is in acceleration (or deceleration).

TUB clearly states that the only stationary object in all the Master Universe is Paradise area. All else is in motion.

Therefore, the notion of what we calculate as VELOCITY is UNREAL. Any concept that includes velocity, or linear equations or other such notions can not be descriptive of a physical reality.

Now let's be clear here. That is not to say that these unreal concepts cannot be useful and provide valuable information to do practical things for us. Remember that word symbols are not real either but they are useful in conveying, to some degree, the real ideas of the mind.

My point from the beginning of this topic was not to discount the benefits of science, only to point out its short comings and avoid falling into a pit of despair and derive dogma from our science.

We can use all of the profits of science but we must be careful to realize that reality lies in the INFINTE and not in our dabblings and faintly glimpsed notions of very limited vision.

God Bless, Louis.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
loucal wrote:
… Leave it to God to create the most perfect Holodeck for us to live. …
Yes. 8) The difference with Star Trek’s holodeck is that we (at least our physical bodies) are actually part of this hologram in space and time. Hence, God is all and in all, and we all live and have our being in Him. God is everywhere and everything, up to the minute ultimaton and beyond..

Image

I think the so called "phi-spiral" and other macroscopic and microscopic fractal geometrical patterns of nature, are just as real and observable as relativity theory and quantum mechanics. All such lawful space-time regularities must ultimately be properties of the First Source and Center functioning around what TUB calls "the circle of eternity" (not a spiral)..
Quote:
42:4.2 We do not fully comprehend the almost endless changes to which physical energy may be subject. In one universe it appears as light, in another as light plus heat, in another as forms of energy unknown on Urantia; in untold millions of years it may reappear as some form of restless, surging electrical energy or magnetic power; and still later on it may again appear in a subsequent universe as some form of variable matter going through a series of metamorphoses, to be followed by its outward physical disappearance in some great cataclysm of the realms. And then, after countless ages and almost endless wandering through numberless universes, again may this same energy re-emerge and many times change its form and potential; and so do these transformations continue through successive ages and throughout countless realms. Thus matter sweeps on, undergoing the transmutations of time but swinging ever true to the circle of eternity; even if long prevented from returning to its source, it is ever responsive thereto, and it ever proceeds in the path ordained by the Infinite Personality who sent it forth.

42:10.1 The endless sweep of relative cosmic reality, from the absoluteness of Paradise monota to the absoluteness of space potency, is suggestive of certain evolutions of relationship in the nonspiritual realities of the First Source and Centerthose realities which are concealed in space potency, revealed in monota, and provisionally disclosed on intervening cosmic levels. This eternal cycle of energy, being circuited in the Father of universes, is absolute and, being absolute, is expansile in neither fact nor value; nevertheless the Primal Father is even now — as always — self-realizing of an ever-expanding arena of time-space, and of time-space-transcended, meanings, an arena of changing relationships wherein energy-matter is being progressively subjected to the overcontrol of living and divine spirit through the experiential striving of living and personal mind.

By the way, you said: "… Check out the diagram of this combination of spiral inside the Phi ratio rectangle. Notice how the radius 'jumps' by Phi ( The Divine Ratio) every 90 deg arc. These are 'Quantum' changes. …" I’m not sure I understand that. Can you explain what you mean by "quantum changes" at every 90 degree arc?

Image


The self-similar spiral structures of the Mandelbrot fractal are basically produced by a very simple iterated mathematical formula that was discovered more or less coincidentally by Benoit Mandelbrot. Quantum events may be seen here as the calculated result of a (variable) number of iterations of the formula for every point in space; thus producing the (infinite) fractal image..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
You are correct Brother, we are IN this very holodeck. But even though we are in Him and He is in us, He projects us. Not the other way around. That is why we may not serve as a proper observer. God is the only One who can observe; " ...and He saw that it was good". We can never have the proper frame of reference. We are motion and motion cannot evaluate motion. Only from stillness does this prerogative emminate.

Reality demands a reference frame. RT only gives us a false one, something else that is in motion. (relative motions). But as I've said, only something that is not in motion can objectively evaluate motion. That reference frame is God. RT let's you choose the observer. This is not good enough because we who are in the hologram cannot know infinity because we are finite. This is one of the things that is not a matter of free will. We cannot choose to be infinite, we cannot choose to be God.

QM suffers from mathematics that depicts nothing real. The equations are full of vectors and velocity terms that are not part of reality. A broken clock is correct twice a day and that is fine if we only check at that time only twice a day.

Thanks for posting the Phi spiral. Just look at each square and the arc of the circle inscribed. Note that the radius of that arc starts at a point at one corner of the square. Now proceed to the next smaller square where the spiral continues. The next radius of the arc in the smaller square in shorter and that radius change jumped instantly at a point. I wish I could demonstrate in person, but...

Please imagine this figure in 3 dimensions and that the spiral can spiral out as well as spiral in without changing the direction of the spiral. I encourage you to read as much as you can about this Phi ratio because it is natures fractal and perfectly models what TUB describes as the motions of space and time.

Imagine the cubes as space, able to expand and contract, and picture time as the spiral itself, able to dilate and contract while not having to reverse, and all in concert with space, the cubes.


Your point about how TUB uses 'circles' and 'circular simultaneity' is well taken, but I have to assume that the authors uses the word circular broadly to denote spherical, ellipsoidal, and spiral. Strickly speaking, a circle is a 2 dimensional representation, so I can't believe the authors would limit its definition to the unreality of 2 dimensions.

Please let me know if my explanation of the Phi spiral needs further clarification.

Regards, Louis


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:09 am +0000
Posts: 722
Location: Jacksonville, FL
H Louis,

When you said that the combined motion of space respiration and rotational motion of space can be depicted as spiral or torus, I agree but that is if the rotational motion of space was only in one direction. But the truth is there is an interval of clockwise and counterclockwise in every space level. How would you then depict a spiral and counterspiral at the same time?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Great question, YSMAEL:

Consider 'imbedded' tori, each rotating counter to each other but expanding and contracting in unison. Picture inner tubes within inner tubes, representing the various space levels and with Paradise in the 'donut' hole. Unpervaded space in its hourglass shape above and below the donut hole.

Check out a the p - orbital of the hydrogen wave- function.

Thanks for the question.

Regards, Louis.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
I agree bart that god is everything, but the u.b also says that not everything is god. There could be some serious points of seperation between god and finite reality that he self willingly put there. IMO this makes a grand unified theory impossible. We know that we have our literal being within the supreme. Also we know that god delegates as much of his own reality to lower beings as he possibly can. This forces science to include all the personalties inbetween which makes reality even that much more infinitely complex.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:21 pm +0000
Posts: 313
Location: London, England
loucol wrote:
Tigran, are you listening; Please chime in, this is your corner.


I only now noticed this post of yours as I don't read forums regularly. Yes, most of your points concerning the contradictions between RT and TUB are valid and Bart's "clarifications" responding to them are not. But I don't have time to explain to Bart the basics of Special and General Relativity --- instead I suggest Bart to read any good book on this subject, e.g. Robert Wald's General Relativity (my favourite) or the more classical old good Misner, Thorne, Wheeler "Gravitation". Then everything will be clear. Also, to very serious students I normally suggest reading the original papers by Poincare, Lorentz, Minkowski and "Albrecht" Einstein --- there is a very nice book "Principle of Relativity" where all* these "foundational" papers are gathered together into one volume, and they are not hard to understand as long as you can tolerate their "ancient" now obsolete notations.

But at the same time, Bart is correct in asserting that RT is a very accurate mathematical model of reality. This is true, but, nevertheless, the fundamental essence of RT and the seed of truth contained therein (both in SR and GR) is not widely understood (not by Bart alone, but even by those "experts" whose names I mentioned above, yes, including Einstein).

all* --- all are indeed gathered in the Russian and German editions, but the English (1920) is only restricted to Einstein and Minkowski, if I remember correctly (it's been more than 20 years since I studied the original papers by Einstein, Minkowski etc :)

_________________
http://www.bibles.org.uk - The Living Jesus Movement


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:21 pm +0000
Posts: 313
Location: London, England
loucol wrote:
...
Linear notions of any kind are simply NOT REAL.

Every physical reality, that which is in motion, is in acceleration (or deceleration).

TUB clearly states that the only stationary object in all the Master Universe is Paradise area. All else is in motion.

Therefore, the notion of what we calculate as VELOCITY is UNREAL. Any concept that includes velocity, or linear equations or other such notions can not be descriptive of a physical reality.

Now let's be clear here. That is not to say that these unreal concepts cannot be useful and provide valuable information to do practical things for us. Remember that word symbols are not real either but they are useful in conveying, to some degree, the real ideas of the mind.

My point from the beginning of this topic was not to discount the benefits of science, only to point out its short comings and avoid falling into a pit of despair and derive dogma from our science.


Good. Very very interesting thoughts, thank you. Yes, you said well: "velocity is unreal". Or, let us rephrase it like this: "coordinate and momentum cannot be measured simultaneously" ( = Heiseinberg's Uncertainty Principle). Or, more generally, any pair of conjugated dynamical variables cannot be said to have a definite value simultaneously. This follows from the basic simplectic structure of the phase space manifold. Ok, this is all well known and "smells" like physics, QM to be exact.

But what if I say something more bold and "strange" like this: "no function f(x) and its derivative f'(x) can exist 'simultaneously', i.e. at the same point x=x_0"? Surely this is not true, i.e. every one who knows a little calculus can say "I can just take f(x), differentiate it and set x=x_0 and behold you have both the values of f(x_0) and f'(x_0) --- what's wrong with that?" What is "wrong" is the whole procedure of taking limit on which the concept of derivative is based. It is "unreal" in the same sense in which you use this word.

Instead of elaborating here, let us jump to another universe --- that of Fourier transforms. In the operator sense, the multiplication "x" and a derivative "d/dx" are conjugated and their eigen-elements relate like a function psi(x) and its Fourier-image phi(p). And you cannot localize (turn into a delta-function) both the function psi(x) and its Fourier image phi(p).

The whole "Heinsenberg Uncertainty" thing becomes much clearer when you treat QM not in the Schroedinger's or Heisenberg's picture but in the Wigner function f(x,p) formalism. The phase space manifold of distinct points (x,p) disappears --- only the finite domains in it remain meaningful. This, if extrapolated to analysis and the issue of f(x_0) and f'(x_0) touched above, has profound implication --- the entire notion of "derivative" must be re-visited and reformulated in terms of Wigner-like pseudo-distribution function terms.

I believe that the key to the riddle of motion which you have approached intuitively lies in the domain of deeper understanding of Wigner functions (or pseudo-differential operators of infinite order and *-algebras in the Moyal sense) Something to think about...

_________________
http://www.bibles.org.uk - The Living Jesus Movement


Last edited by tigran on Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:38 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:21 pm +0000
Posts: 313
Location: London, England
loucol wrote:
Consider 'imbedded' tori, each rotating counter to each other but expanding and contracting in unison. Picture inner tubes within inner tubes, representing the various space levels and with Paradise in the 'donut' hole. Unpervaded space in its hourglass shape above and below the donut hole.

Check out a the p - orbital of the hydrogen wave- function.


Very good illustration! Do you realize that both the Keplerian motions of the planets and the quantum-mechanical motions in the simplest atom (hydrogen) have the same hidden symmetry --- that of a three-sphere S^3? And S^3 can be modeled ("foliated" to be exact) as a family of nested two-tori, just as you depicted (plus two exceptional circles corresponding to poles). This is very nicely described in David Oliver's book "The Shaggy Steed of Physics" (Springer, 2004) which I highly recommend to you. (the pdf file is freely available somewhere --- Google for it). Oliver even chose the picture of this very same family of nested two-tori for the cover of his book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Shaggy-Steed-Physics-ebook/dp/B000PY3NS2/

_________________
http://www.bibles.org.uk - The Living Jesus Movement


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 1:21 pm +0000
Posts: 313
Location: London, England
To make things more concrete, here is an interesting problem. Let us consider the function f(x)=x^2. Its classical ("unreal" as you correctly surmised) derivative is f'(x) = 2x. This is the derivative based on the assumption of infinite divisibility of the domain (set of values of x) and the corresponding procedure of taking limits. What is the "more real" or what I called "quantum derivative" of this function? Note, that my use of the word "quantum" here NOT AT ALL implies any reliance on physics or assumptions/postulates of quantum mechanics, etc. No, we are talking pure mathematics here and the usage of the word "quantum" simply refers to the observation (first discovered in the context of Hamiltonian classical mechanics) that the flow in the phase space of conjugated variables preserves areas and the related quantum-mechanical analogue of this known as "Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle".

_________________
http://www.bibles.org.uk - The Living Jesus Movement


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Hi tigran: Thanks for the feedback but I must confess that much of the heavy stuff went over my head. My undergrad studies were in mechanical engineering but I have not done calculus or diff equations in over 30 years. I have long since become a technician and have no need of this knowledge. I'm rusty to say the least.

I do glimpse something of what you are saying and perhaps you can assist me in understanding it more intuitively. Heisenberg uncertainty is intuitive. How can one know the position of something in motion without a second position with which to calculate its velocity? My response to him would have been, duh.

Consider this: If I could take the liberty of redefining position and motion, I think I can illustrate for myself what you are stating with respect to the derivative.

Let's start at the beginning, the source. We can call it Paradise but lets symbolize it mathematically as a point. I will the define position as a radial distance from the center point and note that this is a scaler value because radii are in infinite many directions.

So, I have defined position as a SPHERICAL SHELL with radius x.

Motion I defined as a change in position (radius) as the sphere rotates in time about the center point.

I went from a point to a spherical shell, to rotation with change in radius. Nothing LINEAR there. Did I skip a derivative or two? Oops! But that's OK. I have my motion. The study of motion is physics. It seems like God had little use for those 'derivative' in His Universe of motion.

TUB defines motion in this manner. Space, expanding and contracting while simultaneously rotating around Paradise, this is the very definition of SPIRAL MOTION.

Gravity is control of the radius and control of the radius originates with the center point.

Now, I propose that Gravity is not acceleration, but an accelerated acceleration, 'analogous' to the 3rd derivative. This takes on the nature of a 'quantum jerk'.

I'm making the case for gravity being in control of radius and radial changes occurring in quantum leaps. QUANTUM GRAVITY? The sphere gets bigger and smaller in sudden jumps as it rotates (spins).

Anyone interested can study the Phi spiral provided by Bart in this thread a few post back.

Take note how the radius of the successive arcs in the spiral change by Phi at 90 deg of the turn in an instantaneous fashion while still producing a continuous event.

THE DISCRETE BORNS THE CONTINOUS! Nature exhibits both in it's motion.

Also note that this spiral requires Pi, Phi and e to describe its dynamics.

These values cannot be defined therefore motion in the phenomenal reality cannot be defined (made finite). Motion in the universe cannot be defined, only approximated. Physics cannot be precise because only God can count. If you can't count to infinity, you can't count.

This is OK, approximations are extremely useful, but science, no matter how hard it tries, cannot define what is DERIVED from the Infinte. No matter how finite it might APPEAR.

Thanks all. Comments, criticisms, input are encouraged.

Regards, Louis.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Tigran wrote:
… Yes, most of your points concerning the contradictions between RT and TUB are valid and Bart's "clarifications" responding to them are not. But I don't have time to explain to Bart the basics of Special and General Relativity …
Tigran – This is a discussion about Relativity and TUB. Instead of apparently agreeing with a theory about spirals without saying anything in particular about spirals, I think it would have been more appropriate if you countered my "clarifications" regarding the (necessary) compatibility of relativity theory and TUB. Please use your "basic" understanding of RT. :)

I stated elsewhere that there should be a forum rule against disrupting a discussion which is relevant to TUB’s teachings, with unsubstantiated and/or misinformed claims. I think this rule must also include: disrupting a discussion with (completely) irrelevant arguments..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Relativity and TUB
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:40 pm +0000
Posts: 289
deleted


Last edited by As-Above-So-Below on Fri May 10, 2013 12:06 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 490 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 33  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group