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Do you really think that time dilation is not a scientifically formalized and proven principle of all material reality?
Not exactly. I think that it is a scientifically formalized theory, that attempts to explain time and its relation to finite reality. But for me personally to assume scientists have a grasp on the time aspect of reality is kind of silly because we know from the urantia book that our science is far from understanding universe reality even finite reality. I can actually have a better idea of how some aspects of reality works on a basic level than scientists because the Urantia book is telling us how reality works. There are still many scientists who think that time travel is possible, that black holes are wormholes to other areas of the universe based on their gravity and time dilated effects from having tremendous gravity. Many of these notions can be dismissed with the Urantia Book.

The problem with all of these theories is that for me there is not enough proof. You keep bringing up the atomic clock scenario, but many scientists do not consider this experiment as proof of time dilation. These scientists usually get bludgeoned but never the less this is what is out there. Many scientists believe that in this scenario clocks are affected mechanically by the conditions they are in, where time has nothing to do with it. Also there are many scientists who do not consider the decaying of matter as proof of time dilation. These are not my personal ideas. Its not me against the entire world on this one. I am simply skeptical untill there is enough evidence to sway me, I am not going to just accept a theory of time without hard evidence unless it is directly supported by the urantia book.

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All we know is that material clocks run faster when gravity decreases and/or when relative velocity decreases; not "because of" gravity or relative velocity or anything. Can’t you read?
Yes and I am saying they run faster/slower because they are mechanically flawed clocks when put in different physical environments, ie. imperfect instruments. Can't you listen? I am saying that when they go tick-tock, tick-tock, that there is a slight increase and or decrease in the tick-tock due to gravity and velocity. Einstien himself said himself that a clock that is not based off matter should be used to test his theory of time dilation out and this has not been done so far, he thought one based off of photons would be ideal obviously he thought that this would be a non-matter type of clock, yet clearly we know there is matter in light because of the urantia book. So clearly we can challenge some concepts even if they are put forward by Einstien himself, because we have the u.b.

It would seem to me that our ability to expand our consciousness in time happens threw the arena of the mind soul and personality. This to me is where the real humanly observed time changing happens. The authors refer to those who have expanded their consciousness in time as having increased their "time units".

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1295.3) 118:1.3 There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

1295.4) 118:1.4 Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

(1295.5) 118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.


The scientific community is not unified in regard to its theories of time I am hardly giving unique, obscure or original opinions. Many of my questions are from the scientific community itself. The clocks argument seems to be your best and really only argument and many in the scientific community have called it a bogus expirement, just as many in the scientific community have called it bogus to assume matter decay as evidence of time dilation. These are not my unique positions there are MANY in the scientific community with this position. Usually the reply is prove that it isn't Time Dilation. Just because time dilation may be false doesn't mean Einstiens other theories are false either its not like I am going against everything he said.

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Can’t you read? And Einstein was right, mechanical clocks are not accurate and reliable enough to measure time dilation effects on Earth, which are very small. And what exactly is a non-material clock? Do you really think photons are not material particles?
It was his idea to use clocks not based off matter at all and he thought that photons were not made of material particles. :shock: You just challenged Einstein?! How could you?!

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Boom – First of all, the question we are discussing here is whether or not experiential time (as defined in The Urantia Book) can locally speed up or slow down (apparently) as a function of gravity and/or acceleration, and relative to experiential time at some other location. Agreed? We are not discussing whether relativity theory is absolutely true or not. And (as far as I’m concerned) we are also not discussing the ontological/epistemological status of mathematical models of reality, relative to the actual reality they may describe.

Relativity theory predicts many macroscopic (experiential) consequences of relative acceleration and gravity with incredible accuracy. Although there may be better theories (possibly a theory of everything), it is simply beyond reasonable doubt that relativity, as defined by Einstein’s general relativity theory, is somehow a very important aspect of experiential material reality.

If such a theory implies that so-called time dilation must exist, and predicts its observable effects very accurately, then I regard this as strong evidence in favour of the reality of time dilation. That’s all.

Apart from that, the question may be whether or not our measurements of time dilation are correct. There are many experimental and observable results that demonstrate significant time dilation effects in perfect agreement with relativity theory. We can discuss them all here if you like, but I think that would be quite a waste of time and energy. Just give me one single reference of a serious scientific peer-reviewed publication which claims that our measurements of time dilation are somehow flawed. Until then, I will assume that you are simply misinformed..

Finally, if time dilation is real, then it could explain why we observe that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, whereas in reality the expansion of the universe is slowing down; which would be nicely in agreement with TUB’s concept of space respiration. :) If you don’t see this, then I suggest you reread the thread..


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I agree that these theories of relativity do explain velocity, gravity and other easily testable factors very well. I just have a hard time accepting the evidence of time dilation based on assumptions and the clock expiriment. There are many scientists who have questioned the clocks expiriment as being a flowed expiriment and not proof of time dilation. These scientists appear to get bludgeoned but there appears to be many of them out there. I just feel like for me personally I need more evidence of time dilation before I can accept it. I am not speaking for everyone else though so I don't want to tell others how they should feel about it.

I could see how matter decaying or being preserved based on velocity and gravity may be evidence of time dilation but for me personaly I don't see it as hard proof of time dilation.

I just have a hard time connecting time to velocity and gravity no pun intended lol.

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You keep saying: "There are many scientists who have questioned the clocks expiriment as being a flawed expiriment and not proof of time dilation." Then where are their publications? Just give me one link to a scientific (peer-reviewed) article that claims this! Where did you get this information? No scientist in his right mind would even think of conjecturing anything like that. Time dilation is one of the hardest experimental results in all of physics and cosmology. And I think it’s a great result! :)

What’s your problem with time dilation anyway? It’s fully compatible with TUB’s definition of time; and it may indicate that the universe (space) is not exploding but respirating. You say: "I just have a hard time connecting time to velocity and gravity." Don’t you think that everything is "connected" by/in the First Source and Center, the I AM..?


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I'll need the book - The Book for Dumber Dumbies!! I take it from the description and my old scifi days that the folks going the speed of light are aging at the same "speed" they are when on-planet as far as their experience of time elapsed (meaning if they were to die at age 60 on planet, they would still die at age 60 on ship) - but relative to those on-planet, the time experienced is "longer" on ship/speed of light. But to Boom's point, that would mean time itself is different, not just the experience of time wouldn't it? There must be some form of time compensator in-motion, regardless of speed or acceleration? It doesn't seem from a reading of TUB's presentation on matter and energy that this can be experienced in reality...but only in theory; that we're missing important information. Much is apparent that is not real, and much reality than is far from apparent to us. Can't wait for more!

Papers 41 and 42 made me dizzy and then I found this (probably not relevant....but interesting!):


3. Time and Space Services of Solitary Messengers

(260.5) 23:3.1 The Solitary Messengers are the highest type of perfect and confidential personality available in all realms for the quick transmission of important and urgent messages when it is inexpedient to utilize either the broadcast service or the reflectivity mechanism. They serve in an endless variety of assignments, helping out the spiritual and material beings of the realms, particularly where the element of time is involved. Of all orders assigned to the services of the superuniverse domains, they are the highest and most versatile personalized beings who can come so near to defying time and space.

(260.6) 23:3.2 The universe is well supplied with spirits who utilize gravity for purposes of transit; they can go anywhere any time — instanter — but they are not persons. Certain other gravity traversers are personal beings, such as Gravity Messengers and Transcendental Recorders, but they are not available to the super- and the local universe administrators. The worlds teem with angels and men and other highly personal beings, but they are handicapped by time and space: The limit of velocity for most nonenseraphimed beings is 186,280 miles of your world per second of your time; the midway creatures and certain others can, often do, attain double velocity — 372,560 miles per second — while the seraphim and others can traverse space at triple velocity, about 558,840 miles per second. There are, however, no transit or messenger personalities who function between the instantaneous velocities of the gravity traversers and the comparatively slow speeds of the seraphim, except the Solitary Messengers.

(261.1) 23:3.3 Solitary Messengers are, therefore, generally used for dispatch and service in those situations where personality is essential to the achievement of the assignment, and where it is desired to avoid the loss of time which would be occasioned by the sending of any other readily available type of personal messenger. They are the only definitely personalized beings who can synchronize with the combined universal currents of the grand universe. Their velocity in traversing space is variable, depending on a great variety of interfering influences, but the record shows that on the journey to fulfill this mission my associate messenger proceeded at the rate of 841,621,642,000 of your miles per second of your time.

(261.2) 23:3.4 It is wholly beyond my ability to explain to the material type of mind how a spirit can be a real person and at the same time traverse space at such tremendous velocities. But these very Solitary Messengers actually come to, and go from, Urantia at these incomprehensible speeds; indeed, the whole economy of universal administration would be largely deprived of its personal element were this not a fact.

Do you think those at each end of these flights have experienced a relative time or experience differential from the Messanger? I doubt it. But then, I'm the mental midget in this presentation. :?: Peace.


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You keep saying: "There are many scientists who have questioned the clocks expiriment as being a flawed expiriment and not proof of time dilation." Then where are their publications? Just give me one link to a scientific (peer-reviewed) article that claims this! Where did you get this information? No scientist in his right mind would even think of conjecturing anything like that. Time dilation is one of the hardest experimental results in all of physics and cosmology. And I think it’s a great result!

What’s your problem with time dilation anyway? It’s fully compatible with TUB’s definition of time; and it may indicate that the universe (space) is not exploding but respirating. You say: "I just have a hard time connecting time to velocity and gravity." Don’t you think that everything is "connected" by/in the First Source and Center, the I AM..?


My problem with Time Dilation is that I don't just accept a theory because its a well renowned theory. I have to research it for myself. Of coarse I think all reality is connected to the First Source and Center I AM, I have no trouble visualizing how this may be possible.

From what I have researched no physicist has actually claimed this experiment as actual proof of Time Dilation, but as evidence of time dilation. The experiment suggests that it 'may' explain time dilation. However these clocks are only off a regular clock by 0.00038th of a nanosecond, to take that reading and jump straight to time dilation seems a little premature to me. There are many factors that have been suggested that could affect these clocks. Space Radiation is extremely powerfull, it is possible that clocks are ever so affected by this radiation. Its possible that these clocks are affected by high speeds and a lack of gravity which leads them to be ever so defective. If someone tells me that their theory of time hinges on a clock being 0.00038th of a nanosecond off, than of coarse I am going to be skeptical that time is the culprit. There could be a number of factors affecting these clocks besides time itself.

No physicst has claimed that Relativity is perfect. There are regimes where it doesn't even apply at all. Quantum physics also has shown that there are many unknowns, there are many physicists especially in the qauntum field who are not sure how relativity theories are going to be affected when new particles are found. When Cern unlocks new mysteries about the atom, in which we know are there to be found it will open up intirely new theories of reality and relativity. There will no doubt be new quantum theories that better explain the inter-relatedness of all reality. Many physicsts do not consider Einstien and his theories to be revered or the law of god, they know that there is going to be new discoveries of the particle world which will lead to new physics.

I also do not think that just because matter slows down or speeds up in a certain gravity/velocity that it means time is speeding up or slowing down. My perception of time shifts is where more events are happening at once, I believe on the finite plane events happens simultaniously, one after the other and this is pretty uniform for the physical realms of space. But I feel that somehow on paradise events happen at the same time and this is how I view time dilating. I feel that these beings live and breathe in eternal moments.

Physicists do not seem to be "defenders of the status quo" professors from places like CERN describe in detail how deviations from the current models would be detected. Everyone seems to be after a 1st glimpse of this "New Physics" be it with sensing supersymmetry, quantum fields, new types of matter etc. Of coarse CERN is partially responsible for that. There are many physicists who are saying to themselves "If this theory breaks down, whats the way it will break down"? it would seem that alot of physicsts spend their time trying to find errors because it will get them published, knocking over a paradgm would get them alot of interest.

Instead of a conversation conveying simple things, I imagine their conversation being filled with a moment of eternity. I guess the best comparasion would be how the revelators explain music to us. Perhaps one word on their world would be anagolous to a symphony of music on our world. They can probably convey that much breadth and depth in one whisper as we do in an hour of speaking.

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(500.5) 44:1.14 The best music of Urantia is just a fleeting echo of the magnificent strains heard by the celestial associates of your musicians, who left but snatches of these harmonies of morontia forces on record as the musical melodies of sound harmonics. Spirit-morontia music not infrequently employs all seven modes of expression and reproduction, so that the human mind is tremendously handicapped in any attempt to reduce these melodies of the higher spheres to mere notes of musical sound. Such an effort would be something like endeavoring to reproduce the strains of a great orchestra by means of a single musical instrument.


The urantia book talks about how space is not an empty vacuum and that there are energies that we are yet unaware of. To me it seems more likely that these clocks are affected by something in space. If everything is connected than to me it is much more likely that some unkown force acting on the clocks is causing them to be flawed. For me time itself is the last suspect. I would imagine many devices and inventions of man work just ever so slightly different in extreme conditions.

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Boom – You must be one of the most stubborn individuals on this forum. And you don’t read what I say. And you proclaim untruths (lies). The latter is a particularly bad habit. As long as you can’t or don’t backup what you say with references, links, and/or quotes, I will continue to assume that you are at best misinformed, while it seems as if you actually don’t care about science and (observable) facts, but only about your own unsubstantiated speculations, for some or other odd reason.

This is no longer a discussion, but some childish repetition of your silly claims and my subsequent attempts to talk sense into you. This is really getting quite frustrating. Furthermore, what you are saying is not in any way related to what The Urantia Book says about time. Your TUB quotes about the human time unit are completely off topic, and your personal opinions regarding time dilation disrupt the perfectly valid argument that time dilation, in relation to decelerating universal expansion, may explain - and support TUB’s concept of space respiration.

I actually think there should be a forum rule against disrupting a serious and relevant discussion which is in line with TUB’s teachings, with unsubstantiated and/or misinformed claims!

boomshuka wrote:
… From what I have researched no physicist has actually claimed this experiment as actual proof of Time Dilation, but as evidence of time dilation. …
Well, congratulations Boom, you have discovered an important truth about the scientific method. Absolute proof of any theory or anything can never be experimentally obtained. At best very, very strong evidence can be obtained. There is a thread called "proving the existence of God" (which I assume you read because of the posts in it with your name on it) in which the difference between scientific proof or evidence and absolute proof is explained. But apparently you didn’t understand it, even as TUB states exactly the same. Instead you say you need more than evidence; you need (absolute) proof. Well, again, good luck..

boomshuka wrote:
… The urantia book talks about how space is not an empty vacuum and that there are energies that we are yet unaware of. To me it seems more likely that these clocks are affected by something in space. If everything is connected than to me it is much more likely that some unkown force acting on the clocks is causing them to be flawed. For me time itself is the last suspect. I would imagine many devices and inventions of man work just ever so slightly different in extreme conditions. …
This conclusion is very remarkable. Basically you say here exactly what I was saying all along! So why all the other BS? Do you realize this? If not, then it clearly shows that you don’t understand your own arguments. If you do, then is this some kind of game to you?

The rest of your post is just a repetition of your personal unfounded and nonsensical ideas about scientists and experimental science and the phenomenon called time dilation. I will no longer reply to that. I sincerely hope the administration will lock this thread now.


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There is no need to make a debate over time dilation personal bart. I didn't know you were so passionate about time dilation. I am not replying to you the way you want, but that doesn't mean I am trying to be a jerk. I am not saying time dilation is not happening for sure I am just saying its possible something else that we are not aware of could be happening instead. I don't feel like I am coming from left field in saying that, obviously you disagree no big deal.

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Obviously, this is some game to you.


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Maybe time dilation is what explains the reason I missed the 4:30 train yesterday!?

:idea:


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How high were you?.....I mean above sea level! :smile:

Bart, now I'm not smart or educated enough to join in here, but want you to know the thread has been enjoyable and I think, or hope, that all TUB students and believers are a cheering squad for science....to push religionists forward into possibilities and realities. Science has done a relatively good job at positioning theory as theory and not casting the ever changing discovery process in stone. I believe the science of the past few hundred years - before Newton even but accelerating ever since right to Scopes and Hubble and atomics and space, etc. is another indicator of planetary progression and the "quivering on the brink" referred to in TUB. Now, instant global translated communications as an enemy to tyranny and subjugation. Thinks are picking up briskly it seems.

Anyway appreciate both you and Boom's debate, a healthy exercise for the rest of us despite its frustration for you. This I do know....no matter how good our science becomes, the single point perspective from planet into the heavens limits and distorts, both, the observation and measurement of that which is witnessed and "explained" by science. TUB seems clear there are "limitors" and "compensators" at play throughout all space and all time. Fascinating presentation, please keep bringing it to us. Peace.


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fanofVan wrote:
… the single point perspective from planet into the heavens limits and distorts, both, the observation and measurement of that which is witnessed and "explained" by science. TUB seems clear there are "limitors" and "compensators" at play throughout all space and all time. …
I assume that by "limitors" and "compensators" you mean (e.g.) energy directors and force organizers. TUB indicates that the (living) power centers and their associates are concerned with energy at the prematerial level of ultimatonic organization. Upon materialization, matter/energy falls under the complete grasp of linear (local) gravity. (42:4.3) Therefore I think that scientific observations and measurements are indeed limited, but not distorted. Science observes and interprets material reality.

Nevertheless, what we observe/experience as time is (somehow) an inherent consequence of the underlying spiritual processes and principles and nature of the formation and organization of matter out of pure energy. In other words: the phenomenon we call time is very closely related to spirit realities. So, I think that a good (scientific) understanding of what exactly time is (which is e.g. indicated by time dilation experiments) may be very relevant to religion.

Thereby "revelation affords a common meeting ground for the discoveries of both science and religion.."
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42:4.3 The power centers and their associates are much concerned in the work of transmuting the ultimaton into the circuits and revolutions of the electron. These unique beings control and compound power by their skillful manipulation of the basic units of materialized energy, the ultimatons. They are masters of energy as it circulates in this primitive state. In liaison with the physical controllers they are able to effectively control and direct energy even after it has transmuted to the electrical level, the so-called electronic stage. But their range of action is enormously curtailed when electronically organized energy swings into the whirls of the atomic systems. Upon such materialization, these energies fall under the complete grasp of the drawing power of linear gravity.

103:7.9 The science of the material world enables man to control, and to some extent dominate, his physical environment. The religion of the spiritual experience is the source of the fraternity impulse which enables men to live together in the complexities of the civilization of a scientific age. Metaphysics, but more certainly revelation, affords a common meeting ground for the discoveries of both science and religion and makes possible the human attempt logically to correlate these separate but interdependent domains of thought into a well-balanced philosophy of scientific stability and religious certainty.


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Leap Second on Saturday Will Cause 61-Second Minute
by Joe Rao, SPACE.com Skywatching Columnist - Date: 29 June 2012 Time: 05:30 AM ET

http://www.space.com/16356-leap-second- ... urday.html

The transition from June to July will be delayed by circumstances beyond everyone's control. Time will stand still for one second on Saturday evening (June 30) because a "leap second" will be added to let a lagging Earth catch up to super-accurate clocks.

International Atomic Time is a very accurate and stable time scale. It is a weighted average of the time kept by about 200 atomic clocks in over 50 national laboratories worldwide. Atomic time is measured through vibrations of atoms in a metal isotope that resembles mercury and can keep time to within a tenth of a billionth of a second per day. The result is extremely accurate time that can be used to improve synchronization in precision navigation and positioning systems, telecommunications networks and deep-space communications.

But from their careful observations of the positions of the stars, astronomers have deduced that Earth's rotation is ever so slightly slowing down at a non-uniform rate, probably attributable to its sloshing molten core, the rolling of the oceans, the melting of polar ice and the effects of solar and lunar gravity.

Adjusting the clock

Today's atomic clocks are accurate to approximately one second in 200 million years. On average, our planet has been falling behind atomic time at a rate of about two milliseconds per day. As a result, it now trails the "official" clock by about six-tenths of a second.

As a result of this difference, atomic clocks, which are used to set all other clocks, can get out of sync with the Earth and periodically have to be adjusted. A leap second has to be added from time to time to make up the difference.

The next time will be Saturday, when the master clock at the United States Naval Observatory will be adjusted at 7:59:60 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time, or 23:59:60 Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). This will put Mother Earth about four-tenths of a second ahead of the clock, giving her a bit of a head start as we transition into the new month of July.

Jim :smile:


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