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Bart, in your reply to this month's no-belly prize winner (great work, Louis!), you wrote:

Bart wrote:
Hi Louis. [...]
You state: "The source of all reality is the Infinite, and reality cannot be divided."
I would say: The source of all reality is the Infinite First Source and Center, and absolute reality cannot be divided.

Let's take a closer look. In 12:3 "Universal Gravity", where the author reveals the four absolute gravities, he states:
UB (131.9) 12:3.6 wrote:
"These four circuits are not related to the nether Paradise force center; they are neither force, energy, nor power circuits. They are absolute presence circuits and like God are independent of time and space." 12:3.6

Bart, the UB authors describe not only a separation of the Qualified from the Unqualified, but also an actual partitioning of absolute reality into four absolutely separate domains: (4) material, (3) mindal, (2) spiritual, and (1) personal. So please, let's not forget a fundamental truth-fact of these papers: that each of these absolute domains stands upon distinct and absolute sources and centers, and that each is managed by techniques of absolutely distinct absolute gravities. What's more, in any hypothetical "all-is-one" pre-absolute stasis, these post-qualified absolute presence circuits would not be required. Maybe you can deepen, or enrich, your definition of "absolute" to better align with the one used in the UB? This will help keep the discussion relevant to the UB.

Bart wrote:
Personally I'm only interested here in understanding TUB's physics and cosmology and possibly providing a concise and logical way (model/analogy of absolute reality) that makes sense of many seemingly conflicting literal statements in TUB that otherwise remain incomprehensible.

Given your investment in (yet another) oscillation theory, I can see why some things in the UB may be seemingly in conflict with your model. Have you considered the possibility that the "literal statements" you find to be "seemingly conflicting", may actually reflect your misunderstandings?

Bart wrote:
If you want to discuss TUB’s finite physics and its pantheon of sub-infinite beings organizing energy and force, then that’s fine with me, although I think such a discussion is impossible and futile without a proper philosophical understanding of absolute reality, which must be the fundamental starting point of any such discussion.

Agreed! This is precisely why I hope you can deepen your understanding of how the authors are using their definition and concept of "absolute". As I mentioned before, your interpretation seems similar to Theosophical or Hindu beliefs, which I suggest are insufficient when discussing the tapestry of super-finite realities woven by the UB authors.

Bart wrote:
Again, the outcome of the discussion can only have philosophical (metaphysical) implications.

I was hoping for more. For example, as an astrophysicist, I'm keen to explain the nature of those short gamma ray bursts I mentioned in my last post. If we can show that the UB's revelation (41:3.6) regarding "the limiting and critical explosion point of ultimatonic condensation" predicts just such an unimaginable release of Planck scale binding energy, then we will cause more than mere metaphysical implications.

There will be no-bellies for all, because we'll be too busy for the necessary long lunches.
Nigel


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I think the confusion is how can the I Am who is the father transform all of reality within himself into these distinct parts and sources. Yet still remain the ancestor and source of all things. No doubt it is mind boggling. I think what happened is that there was an unfulfilled potential of the actualization other beings and relationship to other beings within the I AM.

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nnunn wrote:
… Bart, the UB authors describe not only a separation of the Qualified from the Unqualified, but also an actual partitioning of absolute reality into four absolutely separate domains: (4) material, (3) mindal, (2) spiritual, and (1) personal. So please, let's not forget a fundamental truth-fact of these papers: that each of these absolute domains stands upon distinct and absolute sources and centers, and that each is managed by techniques of absolutely distinct absolute gravities. What's more, in any hypothetical "all-is-one" pre-absolute stasis, these post-qualified absolute presence circuits would not be required. Maybe you can deepen, or enrich, your definition of "absolute" to better align with the one used in the UB? This will help keep the discussion relevant to the UB. …
Hi Nigel. Well, I was (of course) referring in my post to Louis, to the Unqualified Absolute or First Source and Center. And I certainly don’t agree with you. TUB states that Deity experiences identity with the Unqualified Absolute (0:2.18). I suppose that would not be a hallucination. And these (more or less) distinct Absolute domains you talk about are Qualified Absolutes.
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0:2.18 7. God the Absolute — the experientializing God of transcended superpersonal values and divinity meanings, now existential as the Deity Absolute. This is the third level of unifying Deity expression and expansion. On this supercreative level, Deity experiences exhaustion of personalizable potential, encounters completion of divinity, and undergoes depletion of capacity for self-revelation to successive and progressive levels of other-personalization. Deity now encounters, impinges upon, and experiences identity[/i] with, the Unqualified Absolute.

0:3.9 God, as the First Source and Center, is primal in relation to total reality—unqualifiedly. The First Source and Center is infinite as well as eternal and is therefore limited or conditioned only by volition.


nnunn wrote:
… Given your investment in (yet another) oscillation theory, I can see why some things in the UB may be seemingly in conflict with your model. Have you considered the possibility that the "literal statements" you find to be "seemingly conflicting", may actually reflect your misunderstandings? …
Sure I have and I still do. I’m not going to repeat all my arguments here. Please show me where I interpreted TUB wrong and/or out of context..


nnunn wrote:
… I was hoping for more. For example, as an astrophysicist, I'm keen to explain the nature of those short gamma ray bursts I mentioned in my last post. If we can show that the UB's revelation (41:3.6) regarding "the limiting and critical explosion point of ultimatonic condensation" predicts just such an unimaginable release of Planck scale binding energy, then we will cause more than mere metaphysical implications.
By all means, go ahead! :D


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YSMAEL wrote:
So far, what I understand about your "oscillation theory" is limited or pertains only to physical reality. It does not cover the morontia, spirit, mind and personality reality. It does not also cover life. Therefore, it does not portray "absolute reality".
Hi Ysmael. Let’s start again from the beginning. The revelators themselves suggest that the origin and destiny of all that is called real can be conceived of as "an almost limitless ellipse which is produced by one absolute cause, and which functions throughout this universal circle of endless diversification, ever seeking some absolute and infinite potential of destiny."
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105:0.1 […] The human mind, as it seeks to penetrate the eternity-mystery of the origin and destiny of all that is called real, may helpfully approach the problem by conceiving eternity-infinity as an almost limitless ellipse which is produced by one absolute cause, and which functions throughout this universal circle of endless diversification, ever seeking some absolute and infinite potential of destiny.
I think what the revelators describe here is the complex oscillation of one (absolute) point. The question is: how can reality be understood in such terms?

Since the early 1960s we know from mathematical models that simple recursive systems (oscillations) may produce (project) complex structures in n-dimensional space and time. Such structures can indeed be characterized as "endlessly diverse" and the trajectory of the oscillation never exactly repeats itself. Earlier, I showed an example of such a structure in 2-dimensional space (as well as a video). It contains spiral structures within spiral structures, ad infinitum, and no two spirals are exactly the same.

So far, I think the model is remarkably compatible with TUB. And the revelators must have known about what is currently known on Urantia as chaos theory; first formulated in 1964. The next question must then be: how can a single oscillating point contain not only all space-time reality, but all individual consciousness and personality? (As Boomshuka correctly stated.)

Since the point is the only entity that actually exists, it must be god in the model (the First Source and Center in TUB). As such, the point may be conscious of all self-similar finite structures within structures existing in its infinite oscillation. It may also be capable of bestowing live and individual consciousness and personality as a part of himself upon suitable structures similar to the all containing overall structure and personality (the Universal Father in TUB).

Morontia realities (and ultimate reality) may now be seen as a series of (discrete) shifts in our individual/personal mind and consciousness, which let us discern reality more and more as a whole (the oscillation):

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130:7.5 […] time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events.


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Hi Bart:

I think this discussion has been helpful because your last post evolves your view with increased clarity.

IMO, you are perfectly entitled to represent paradise as a metaphorical geometrical "point".

The 'point' has no extensions in space and no association with time, yet is the source of all directions (infinite) and the destiny of all possible directions. The point is a non-dimensional infinity but projects to the bounded 3 dimensions of our finite reality and on to the unbounded Infinity of dimensions.

Since the point is source and destiny, it is capable of self-consiousness as a recursive source and destiny.

In summary of my previous post on Reality:

The Point is real.
Lines are not real.
Circles and squares are not real.
Spheres and cubes are real
Infinity is real.


56:4.5 Philosophically, cosmically, and with reference to differential levels and locations of manifestation, you may and perforce must conceive of the functioning of plural Deities and postulate the existence of plural Trinities; but in the worshipful experience of the personal contact of every worshiping personality throughout the master universe, God is one; and that unified and personal Deity is our Paradise parent, God the Father, the bestower, conservator, and Father of all personalities from mortal man on the inhabited worlds to the Eternal Son on the central Isle of Light.

More on light and the Central Isle of Light later.

Regards, Louis.


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The revelators themselves suggest that the origin and destiny of all that is called real can be conceived of as "an almost limitless ellipse which is produced by one absolute cause,


It says that eternity-infinity may be conceived as an almost limitless ellipse produced by one absolute cause...for those struggling with the concept of eternity-infinity, not as a physical model for God and reality...just symbols to help the babies reach out and touch the big ball they can't grasp.


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0:3.9 God, as the First Source and Center, is primal in relation to total reality—unqualifiedly. The First Source and Center is infinite as well as eternal and is therefore limited or conditioned only by volition.


That is the secret IMO. God is in fact limiting his direct absolute hand on all of reality on purpose. IMO in the theoretical beginning everything was homogenous and complete with God the I AM. At some impossible moment, God managed to seperate his personality will, from his non-personal self into distinct parts (Unqualifieds). This IMO began to liberate the I AM from being the only being in the Universe. It made it possible for him to actualize new potentials in the form and relationship to other beings.

This beginning can still fit with the quotes in the urantia book about how God is everything and the source of all things, there is another option other than projection. Obviously without Gods creative powers and ability to delegate his power the statements in the urantia book would definitely seem to conflict. But it would seem that God has abilities that defy human logic. It is possible that God is able to perform a projection, but its just as likely (if not more likely) that Gods power being so great he has managed to delegate creative upholdment power onto other diety members and in the form of other beings, so that other beings can enjoy the experience of being like god and becoming like god. To me the latter seems more adventerous and advantageous to his created children. The u.b has explained the Living organism of the Universe (god the supreme being) is evolving. There must be a purpose in limiting his infinite hand on all of reality and it is likely for the benifit of his relationship to other beings IMO I believe he is revealing himself over the course of eternity and this will never cease. As all unqualifieds are Infinite and Gods personality is infinite.

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Don't forget though that the concept of the Universal Father as a First Source and First Cause is just servicable scaffolding the revelators made for our time-bound and space-conditioned mortal minds and there never was a "time" when the Eternal Son and Infinite Spirit didn't also exist and never a primordial ONE.

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8:0.4 In thus reciting the order of the origin of the Deities, I do so merely to enable you to think of their relationship. In reality they are all three existent from eternity; they are existential. They are without beginning or ending of days; they are co-ordinate, supreme, ultimate, absolute, and infinite. They are and always have been and ever shall be. And they are three distinctly individualized but eternally associated persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.


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8:1.10 And we thus portray the sequential origin of the Third Source and Center as an interpretative condescension to the time-bound and space-conditioned mind of mortal creatures. The mind of man must have a starting point for the visualization of universe history, and I have been directed to provide this technique of approach to the historic concept of eternity. In the material mind, consistency demands a First Cause; therefore do we postulate the Universal Father as the First Source and the Absolute Center of all creation, at the same time instructing all creature minds that the Son and the Spirit are coeternal with the Father in all phases of universe history and in all realms of creative activity.


The beginning of history being the creation of Havona by the Infinite Spirit...."by him and with him and in him in obedience to the combined concepts and united wills of the Father and the Son."

Quote:
8:1.4 The God of Action functions and the dead vaults of space are astir. One billion perfect spheres flash into existence. Prior to this hypothetical eternity moment the space-energies inherent in Paradise are existent and potentially operative, but they have no actuality of being; neither can physical gravity be measured except by the reaction of material realities to its incessant pull. There is no material universe at this (assumed) eternally distant moment, but the very instant that one billion worlds materialize, there is in evidence gravity sufficient and adequate to hold them in the everlasting grasp of Paradise.

8:1.5 There now flashes through the creation of the Gods the second form of energy, and this outflowing spirit is instantly grasped by the spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son. Thus the twofold gravity-embraced universe is touched with the energy of infinity and immersed in the spirit of divinity. In this way is the soil of life prepared for the consciousness of mind made manifest in the associated intelligence circuits of the Infinite Spirit.

8:1.6 Upon these seeds of potential existence, diffused throughout the central creation of the Gods, the Father acts, and creature personality appears. Then does the presence of the Paradise Deities fill all organized space and begin effectively to draw all things and beings Paradiseward.


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Hi Nigel:

This is one for your comment in particular.


41:5.6 Energy, whether as light or in other forms, in its flight through space moves straight forward. The actual particles of material existence traverse space like a fusillade. They go in a straight and unbroken line or procession except as they are acted on by superior forces, and except as they ever obey the linear-gravity pull inherent in material mass and the circular-gravity presence of the Isle of Paradise.

It seems like the exception is the rule.

TUB states:

Light is a particle with weight. Therefore, light particles are acceleration by equivalence.

Light has a trajectory that ever obeys the circular-gravity (elliptical) pull of Paradise.

Light follows a CURVED path and is therefore, accelerated.

Light is not a velocity. Light in E=mc^2 must refer to an instantaneous velocity.

Please, I invite comments from all.

Louis.


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well...dunno if this helps...but the m in e=mc2 is for objects at rest...they use momentum instead of mass for the mass/energy equivalence equations involving light (e=pc)...if a photon came to a rest it's momentum would be zero and you'd get e=mc2 again (big if).

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42:4.11 The increase of mass in matter is equal to the increase of energy divided by the square of the velocity of light. In a dynamic sense the work which resting matter can perform is equal to the energy expended in bringing its parts together from Paradise minus the resistance of the forces overcome in transit and the attraction exerted by the parts of matter on one another.


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boomshuka wrote:
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0:3.9 God, as the First Source and Center, is primal in relation to total reality—unqualifiedly. The First Source and Center is infinite as well as eternal and is therefore limited or conditioned only by volition.

That is the secret IMO. God is in fact limiting his direct absolute hand on all of reality on purpose.
Okay. But the question is, how?


boomshuka wrote:
IMO in the theoretical beginning everything was homogenous and complete with God the I AM. At some impossible moment, God managed to seperate his personality will, from his non-personal self into distinct parts (Unqualifieds).
Okay. But, again, the question is how? And what then are these distinct parts? I think BTW that you are confusing the terms Qualified and Unqualified. The Unqualified absolute has no qualifications; it is the absolute First Source and Center, period. The Qualified absolute has qualifications; e.g., the Eternal Son is the Son of God. TUB mentions a total of three Absolutes and only ONE Unqualified Absolute (non-plural!).
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0:11.6 The Deity Absolute is that potential which was segregated from total, infinite reality by the freewill choice of the Universal Father, and within which all divinity activities — existential and experiential — take place. This is the Qualified Absolute in contradistinction to the Unqualified Absolute; but the Universal Absolute is superadditive to both in the encompassment of all absolute potential.


boomshuka wrote:
This IMO began to liberate the I AM from being the only being in the Universe. It made it possible for him to actualize new potentials in the form and relationship to other beings.
Okay. But, again, the question is, how?


boomshuka wrote:
This beginning can still fit with the quotes in the urantia book about how God is everything and the source of all things, there is another option other than projection. Obviously without Gods creative powers and ability to delegate his power the statements in the urantia book would definitely seem to conflict. But it would seem that God has abilities that defy human logic.
So, your "other possibility" is that it defies human logic. Then why do you think the revelators go to such length to try and explain this 'mechanism' of reality to us?


boomshuka wrote:
It is possible that God is able to perform a projection, but its just as likely (if not more likely) that Gods power being so great he has managed to delegate creative upholdment power onto other diety members and in the form of other beings, so that other beings can enjoy the experience of being like god and becoming like god. To me the latter seems more adventerous and advantageous to his created children. The u.b has explained the Living organism of the Universe (god the supreme being) is evolving. There must be a purpose in limiting his infinite hand on all of reality and it is likely for the benifit of his relationship to other beings IMO I believe he is revealing himself over the course of eternity and this will never cease. As all unqualifieds are Infinite and Gods personality is infinite.
As I said, there is only One Unqualified Absolute. And in view of the various arguments and TUB quotes in this thread, it’s (indeed) possible (even most likely) that according to TUB all subinfinite reality is a projection of this First Source and Center. And I have no problem at all with the existence of co-creative DEITY (not diety) within this projection. Even us mortals must be co-creative beings. I really don’t understand your argument against 'absolute projection of reality'. And where in TUB is it stated that God managed to delegate the fundamental power of upholding reality to other beings? Are you confusing the power to uphold with the power to create..?


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IMO in the theoretical beginning everything was homogenous and complete with God the I AM. At some impossible moment, God managed to seperate his personality will, from his non-personal self into distinct parts (Unqualifieds).

Okay. But, again, the question is how? And what then are these distinct parts?


My bad (Unqualified). I think these quotes show the 'how'. The I Am self-differentiated reality within himself. Moving from a homogenous solitary being to something else entirely.

This is a new topic for me, but let me just slowly tread water on this topic by trying to relate some of what I said to these quotes and no try and bite off more than I can chew.

Quote:
105:2.2 In following the chronological portrayal of the origins of reality, there must be a postulated theoretical moment of “first” volitional expression and “first” repercussional reaction within the I AM. In our attempts to portray the genesis and generation of reality, this stage may be conceived as the self-differentiation of The Infinite One from The Infinitude, but the postulation of this dual relationship must always be expanded to a triune conception by the recognition of the eternal continuum of The Infinity, the I AM.


So this is the first volitional expression of the I AM. The self differentation of the Infinite One (personal) from the (non-personal) Infinitude. (will) and (non-will). So before this theoretical moment everything was homogenous within the I AM. Than the revelators go on to explain that there was multiple differentation between the "potential" and actual reality".

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105:2.3 This self-metamorphosis of the I AM culminates in the multiple differentiation of deified reality and of undeified reality, of potential and actual reality, and of certain other realities that can hardly be so classified. These differentiations of the theoretical monistic I AM are eternally integrated by simultaneous relationships arising within the same I AM—the prepotential, preactual, prepersonal, monothetic prereality which, though infinite, is revealed as absolute in the presence of the First Source and Center and as personality in the limitless love of the Universal Father.

105:2.4 By these internal metamorphoses the I AM is establishing the basis for a sevenfold self-relationship. The philosophic (time) concept of the solitary I AM and the transitional (time) concept of the I AM as triune can now be enlarged to encompass the I AM as sevenfold. This sevenfold—or seven phase—nature may be best suggested in relation to the Seven Absolutes of Infinity:


So after the differentiation of the Infinitude from the Infinite One within the I AM, seven fold relationships came into existance as part of the I AM. This description of the Unqualified Absolute definitely seems to fit with the Infinitude as opposed to the Infinite one. Etleast IMO (all nonpersonal potential) would seem to fit with all potential reality that is of the infinitude and not the (personal) infinite one.

Quote:
105:3.7 6. The Unqualified Absolute. Static, reactive, and abeyant; the unrevealed cosmic infinity of the I AM; totality of nondeified reality and finality of all nonpersonal potential. Space limits the function of the Unqualified, but the presence of the Unqualified is without limit, infinite. There is a concept periphery to the master universe, but the presence of the Unqualified is limitless; even eternity cannot exhaust the boundless quiescence of this nondeity Absolute.


This quote seems to indicate that the I Am put some self imposed limit on itself.

Quote:
105:2.9 5. The Infinite Potential. I AM self-qualified. This is the infinity bench mark bearing eternal witness to the volitional self-limitation of the I AM by virtue of which there was achieved threefold self-expression and self-revelation. This phase of the I AM is usually understood as the Deity Absolute.

The revelators do explain the I AM before the theoretical first act. This is the I Am that is undifferentiated.

Quote:
105:1.3 The I AM is the Infinite; the I AM is also infinity. From the sequential, time viewpoint, all reality has its origin in the infinite I AM, whose solitary existence in past infinite eternity must be a finite creature’s premier philosophic postulate. The concept of the I AM connotes unqualified infinity, the undifferentiated reality of all that could ever be in all of an infinite eternity.


The revelators than go on to explain that after the differentation of the Infinite One from the infinitude, there began to the differentation of the seven fold relationship of the I AM. These distinct parts are on 105.1 on the paper entitled 2. THE I AM AS TRIUNE AND AS SEVENFOLD.

The question and obvious one is how is god just monothiestic and IMO that has to do with the first volitional act of the I AM, and how the Universal Father is still the ancestor of all these distinct parts. He is still the source of all these parts even though the revelators are saying that there is no beginning to these eternal parts.
Quote:
105:3.9 The Seven Absolutes of Infinity constitute the beginnings of reality. As mortal minds would regard it, the First Source and Center would appear to be antecedent to all absolutes.
So in the beginning there was only God, yet all of reality begins with the Seven Absolutes.

The next paper is interestingly enough about how finite reality came about, I guess I will save that paper for my next post.
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6. REPERCUSSIONS OF FINITE REALITY
105:6.1 The entire promulgation of finite existences represents a transference from potentials to actuals within the absolute associations of functional infinity. Of the many repercussions to creative actualization of the finite, there may be cited:

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Last edited by boomshuka on Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:08 pm +0000, edited 10 times in total.

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[[quote]"Makalu"]well...dunno if this helps...but the m in e=mc2 is for objects at rest...they use momentum instead of mass for the mass/energy equivalence equations involving light (e=pc)...if a photon came to a rest it's momentum would be zero and you'd get e=mc2 again (big if).

The problem I have here is that mass is never at rest. Nothing outside Paradise rests. The resting mass of light being zero is absolute nonsense and mainstream physics has shoved this unreality down our throats. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is a waste of logic because it posits a reality to linear velocity. Of course you cannot know the position and velocity of motion. You need two position to calculate velocity. Velocity is not an event nor an entity. It is physically and philosophically NOT real. Velocity is a tangent point on an acceleration curve. Everything is in acceleration because everything is going around Paradise. Furthermore, it is an accelerated acceleration because space is also expanding and contracting.

If a photon came to rest it would disappear from physical existence, and E=mc^2 would also be zero energy.

Louis


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The Uncaused Cause 8)

42:1.6 Energy proceeds from Paradise, fashioned after the divine order. Energy — pure energy — partakes of the nature of the divine organization; it is fashioned after the similitude of the three Gods embraced in one, as they function at the headquarters of the universe of universes. And all force is circuited in Paradise, comes from the Paradise Presences and returns thereto, and is in essence a manifestation of the uncaused Cause — the Universal Father; and without the Father would not anything exist that does exist.


118:6.2 To advocate the omnificence of primal Deity would be equal to disenfranchising well-nigh a million Creator Sons of Paradise, not to mention the innumerable hosts of various other orders of concurring creative assistants. There is but one uncaused Cause in the whole universe. All other causes are derivatives of this one First Great Source and Center. And none of this philosophy does any violence to the free-willness of the myriads of the children of Deity scattered through a vast universe.


118:6.3 Within a local frame, volition may appear to function as an uncaused cause, but it unfailingly exhibits inheritance factors which establish relationship with the unique, original, and absolute First Causes.


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loucol wrote:

The problem I have here is that mass is never at rest. Nothing outside Paradise rests. The resting mass of light being zero is absolute nonsense and mainstream physics has shoved this unreality down our throats. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is a waste of logic because it posits a reality to linear velocity. Of course you cannot know the position and velocity of motion. You need two position to calculate velocity. Velocity is not an event nor an entity. It is physically and philosophically NOT real. Velocity is a tangent point on an acceleration curve. Everything is in acceleration because everything is going around Paradise. Furthermore, it is an accelerated acceleration because space is also expanding and contracting.

If a photon came to rest it would disappear from physical existence, and E=mc^2 would also be zero energy.

Louis


well the equation assumes the universe is a closed system in which mass can be at relative rest. When a photon carrying light energy comes to rest it ceases to be a photon with light (hence the big if) but the energy is never zero...energy can't be destroyed. Mass would never be zero either since energy always has mass.

The problem I see with the equation is they can't decide if photons have no mass and c is the constant speed of light or if photons have some mass and c is just a constant of nature that limits any matter to lightspeed. The equations work better with the former especially since the mass of a photon is too small for current instruments to measure.


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