Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:08 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 355 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 975
Bart wrote:
Really? How? Do you think it has lungs?


no I don't think it has lungs...don't try to be a pest...

Quote:
There is no big bang in my (TUB’s) cosmology. Where do you see a big bang? And why wouldn’t this theory account for "mind realities"? And how can it "make the creator less then the thing created" if the creator (the point in the model) is the only physical thing that actually exists?


Your dimensionless point is the same as the singularity in big bang theory. If you use the hindu cop out and say it's all god then you haven't said anything at all in the end and of course my statement doesn't apply but from a more realistic perspective your god is just a simple mathematical construct and the universe that I see is much much more...no comparison...so you've got it backwards.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Listen Makalu – I think you are the one being a pest here and I guess you know it. Otherwise, do you really think I would say thank you Makalu for correcting me, by producing absurd statements like: "Your dimensionless point is the same as the singularity in big bang theory"? For that you will have to come up with some very good arguments that are thoroughly backed up by references to TUB.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:14 pm +0000
Posts: 105
Dear Bart and Louis,

Clearly we're well matched when it comes to waffle and academic hand-waving. So let's try to make this discussion more interesting, and relevant. If the Templeton Foundation were to ask us to help improve (or replace) the standard models of physics and cosmology, using revelations from the UB, how might we proceed? Note that we get no marks (or funding) for pointing out, patiently and politely, that "All is one". What these folks (and our scientific colleagues) are wanting is a description that improves upon existing standard models. That is to say, models that explain without effort why there is a blip in the data near 125 GeV, why the properties of charge and mass seem to stand on triads of quarks held together by the quantized chromodynamics of a three-fold color force, why the electromagnetic messenger can be reflected by matter, why galaxies rotate like rigid bodies, why redshifts appear to depend on distance, etc.

Bart, I think it was old prof. John Wheeler who came up with the idea that quantum electrodynamics would work just fine given one transcendental electron popping up everywhere simultaneously (a bit like your oscillation idea). Young Feynman (politely) pointed out a few loose ends in this theory, but Wheeler remained unconvinced. A bit like Kepler clinging to patterns of Platonic solids?

How about we save the absolutely ultimate for dessert, and start discussing the interesting new (finite) physics implied by the UB, with its Isle of Paradise, force organizers, chronoldeks and ultimatons? I began a few posts back by comparing the 3 levels of "burning" that release energy. Which brought us to ultimatonic condensation, and the mother of all explosions when huddling ultimatons are denied their "elbow room".

Remember, there are No-Belly prizes at stake!!
Nigel


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Hi Nigel. First of all, I don’t think it has been the intention of anyone here to 'improve' the standard model. And as I pointed out earlier, the recognition that all of reality is actually One complex oscillation, will have zero implications for any of our current models of physical reality such as relativity theory and quantum mechanics, which are completely different animals.

An oscillation theory may at best suggest philosophically why relativity theory isn’t accurate at the scale of galaxies and e.g. what the actual nature of so-called dark-matter and/or dark-energy may be (the action of Paradise gravity), and e.g. what the underlying mechanism of quantum non-locality may be (a finite projection of Paradise in time and space).

Personally I’m only interested here in understanding TUB’s physics and cosmology and possibly providing a concise and logical way (model/analogy of absolute reality) that makes sense of many seemingly conflicting literal statements in TUB that otherwise remain incomprehensible.

If you want to discuss TUB’s finite physics and its pantheon of sub-infinite beings organizing energy and force, then that’s fine with me, although I think such a discussion is impossible and futile without a proper philosophical understanding of absolute reality, which must be the fundamental starting point of any such discussion (not a 'dessert').

Contrary to what you are suggesting, I think the discussion whether or not any oscillation theory could be compatible with both TUB and our observable physical reality is very relevant in itself. The amount of (largely unfounded) opposition in this thread against my view seems to confirm this. And I don’t see how what you propose would contribute to arriving at any form of consensus or solution of the issue.

Again, the outcome of the discussion can only have philosophical (metaphysical) implications. But I certainly wouldn’t call it irrelevant. It’s the application of revelation (using revelation what it is for) and a solution could provide strong support for TUB and improve our understanding of absolute reality and the fundamental nature of our finite material world and universe. Ultimately it may provide us with a clear concept of how God may simulataneously relate to all of his creation, through a (relatively simple) theory which is (fully) compliant with the teachings in The Urantia Book.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Hi Nigel:
Interesting proposal. I'm not a scientist but I'll do my best. I basically agree with what Bart had presented and lets keep it philosophical. I personally feel that the standard model must evolve through sudden paradigm shifts and this may take some time. Lets start by agreeing on some initial postulates from TUB. Here are some of mine and we will compile them as we go along.

The source of all reality is the Infinite, and reality cannot be divided.
Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.
Paradise provides for absolute direction in the Universe.
Paradise is the source of the finite, is the eternal abode of the Infinite, the pattern for all.
Paradise is motionless and all else is in motion.
The finite universe is one of motion and is real.
That motion is absolute as it relates to motionless Paradise, relative as one absolute motion relates to other absolute motions.
All motions are spiral; that is, there is circularity and expansion/contraction. Spiral out and spiral in; cyclical
Space and time are inseparable and are inverses of one another and orthogonal.
There are 3 dim of space and 3 dim of time, best illustrated by the Phi spiral where time is represented by the spiral and space by the cubes.
Paradise is the center of the Master Universe and the simultaneous center of the ultimaton and all other absolute motions within motions.
Velocity and simple acceleration are not phenomenally real. Because of absolute spiral motions, only variable acceleration (accelerated acceleration), or 3rd order acceleration is manifest in time-space.
The zero dimension of Paradise is primal and projects the 3 dim of space and 3 dim of time into the motions of the finite. (7 dim total).

I propose we begin with these and discuss them along with other input from all those interested.

Louis

P.S. Very disappointed about the lack of No-Belly prizes. Just finished losing 15 pounds!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 975
Bart wrote:
Listen Makalu – I think you are the one being a pest here and I guess you know it. Otherwise, do you really think I would say thank you Makalu for correcting me, by producing absurd statements like: "Your dimensionless point is the same as the singularity in big bang theory"? For that you will have to come up with some very good arguments that are thoroughly backed up by references to TUB.


I'm not the one who went off on a tangent with "breathing"...if the universe didn't respire it would still be a living organism and the meaning and value of my statement remains. You just lack integrity it seems.

A singularity is a dimensionless point...same thing...no argument needed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Makalu wrote:
I'm not the one who went off on a tangent with "breathing"...if the universe didn't respire it would still be a living organism and the meaning and value of my statement remains. You just lack integrity it seems.
Okay Makalu. So the universe may be viewed as a living organism. It may also to some extent be valid to say that it is 'breathing' space, but not in any way similar to the way we breath air. The revelators observe that space respiration exists. But they explicitely add that they really do not know what is causing it.

My problem with your statements is that you consistently use TUB’s teachings in a more or less distorted way just to say (mostly in one-liners) that I and others are wrong; without any serious discussion of the presented arguments to the contrary. Even if you may view the universe as a living organism, that doesn’t in any way devaluate my ideas which I think are reasonably compliant with TUB.

In my perception your contributions to this discussion are destructive or (at least) disruptive; apparently not intended to arrive at a better understanding of TUB. Regarding any "lack of integrity", it seems to me that you are quite aware of this but for some (egotistic) reason you continue to disrupt the discussion with unfounded (nonsensical) posts which have no rational relation to the more serious ideas and theories set forth in this thread.

I may be wrong regarding your intention. If so, I apologize to you. But may I then ask you to consider more carefully what others are saying before you vent your personal conclusions.

Makalu wrote:
A singularity is a dimensionless point...same thing...no argument needed.
Yes. But this doesn’t at all imply that my ideas are similar to any big bang theory, as you seem to suggest. If you continue to speak in one-liners suggesting you are obviously right and others are obviously wrong, then I will stop replying to your posts, no matter how annoying they get..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Hi Louis. Thanks for the postulates. I agree with most of them. Below I will comment on some.

You state: "The source of all reality is the Infinite, and reality cannot be divided."
I would say: The source of all reality is the Infinite First Source and Center, and absolute reality cannot be divided. So, in relative (time-space) terminology absolute reality may appear be the infinite oscillation of a dimensionless point or singularity that projects all finite and subinfinite reality in time and space. Thereby time and space must be complementary properties of all we call energy-matter; which contains mostly space and only a tiny fraction of continuosly projected absolute reality.

"Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter."
Agreed. It’s interesting to note that mass apparently has direction. TUB states: "[Paradise] gravity always acts preferentially in the plane perpendicular to the mass, a phenomenon indicative of the differential dimensions of Paradise and the surrounding creations." (11:8.9) If absolute reality is viewed as an oscillation, then mass and particles are sequentially projected (and continuously renewed) along the trajectory of the oscillation. Thereby certain (microscopic) time-space regions may be pervaded more frequently than others, thus producing local accumulations of mass and global material structure.
Quote:
11:8.1 The inescapable pull of gravity effectively grips all the worlds of all the universes of all space. Gravity is the all-powerful grasp of the physical presence of Paradise. Gravity is the omnipotent strand on which are strung the gleaming stars, blazing suns, and whirling spheres which constitute the universal physical adornment of the eternal God, who is all things, fills all things, and in whom all things consist.
"Paradise is motionless and all else is in motion."
Paradise may be seen as the motionless/changeless so called (global) attractor or master pattern which is inherent in a complex oscillation. All else is moving relative to – and is attracted inward to this fixed Paradise pattern.

"All motions are spiral; that is, there is circularity and expansion/contraction. Spiral out and spiral in; cyclical."
Possibly the attractor of the oscillation (Paradise) may look something like this in time and space:

Image

However, this is not spiral motion but a pattern or structure of spirals within spirals, et cetera.. All microscopic relative motion may well be spirally contracting and expanding, since (as mentioned above) Paradise gravity acts in the plane perpendicular to the (projected) mass. But I have difficulty seeing how all (macroscopic) relative motion must be spiral. Obviously this is not always the case in our material projection of absolute reality..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2441
Makalu wrote:
Bart wrote:
Listen Makalu – I think you are the one being a pest here and I guess you know it. Otherwise, do you really think I would say thank you Makalu for correcting me, by producing absurd statements like: "Your dimensionless point is the same as the singularity in big bang theory"? For that you will have to come up with some very good arguments that are thoroughly backed up by references to TUB.


I'm not the one who went off on a tangent with "breathing"...if the universe didn't respire it would still be a living organism and the meaning and value of my statement remains. You just lack integrity it seems.

A singularity is a dimensionless point...same thing...no argument needed.



IMO It would seem to me that this quote about how the universe is a living organism is very relevant to this conversation of reality. This quote may give us the best picture humanly available to conceptualize the finite universe. IMO this living organism is its own being -the Supreme Being- not a projection. IMO it is the hand of god. It is interesting that the revelator wanted to share with us something more about the Power Centers. These Centers seem to be key to our finite universe. It is interesting that this organism is dependant on energy in a similar fashion as to how humans rely on solar energy.

Quote:
P1276:2, 116:7.1 The grand universe is not only a material creation of physical grandeur, spirit sublimity, and intellectual magnitude, it is also a magnificent and responsive living organism. There is actual life pulsating throughout the mechanism of the vast creation of the vibrant cosmos. The physical reality of the universes is symbolic of the perceivable reality of the Almighty Supreme; and this material and living organism is penetrated by intelligence circuits, even as the human body is traversed by a network of neural sensation paths. This physical universe is permeated by energy lanes which effectively activate material creation, even as the human body is nourished and energized by the circulatory distribution of the assimilable energy products of nourishment. The vast universe is not without those co-ordinating centers of magnificent overcontrol which might be compared to the delicate chemical-control system of the human mechanism. But if you only knew something about the physique of a power center, we could, by analogy, tell you so much more about the physical universe.

P1276:3, 116:7.2 Much as mortals look to solar energy for life maintenance, so does the grand universe depend upon the unfailing energies emanating from nether Paradise to sustain the material activities and cosmic motions of space.


Quote:
P1276:7, 116:7.6 Man's urge for Paradise perfection, his striving for God-attainment, creates a genuine divinity tension in the living cosmos which can only be resolved by the evolution of an immortal soul; this is what happens in the experience of a single mortal creature. But when all creatures and all Creators in the grand universe likewise strive for God-attainment and divine perfection, there is built up a profound cosmic tension which can only find resolution in the sublime synthesis of almighty power with the spirit person of the evolving God of all creatures, the Supreme Being.


If the Grand Universe was a oscillated projection directly from the Infinite Father would it not than be able to sustain itself directly from god? Instead it would seem that it relies on sustenance in a similar fashion to human beings. Perhaps this organism is a new emerging reality, that is growing as a result of the friction between human beings and God.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Last edited by boomshuka on Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:28 pm +0000, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 975
well Bart it only took one-liners to point out the differences between timespace theory and the papers and you just ignored the strengths of that argument anyway so I continue to point out discrepencies for the benefit of others. If you didn't have an anomalous view of ultimatonic behavior as described in the papers you could include quantum entanglement in your nascent cosmology.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:09 am +0000
Posts: 722
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Hi Bart,

So far, what I understand about your "oscillation theory" is limited or pertains only to physical reality. It does not cover the morontia, spirit, mind and personality reality. It does not also cover life. Therefore, it does not portray "absolute reality".


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Hi Bart: Thanks for the reply. Allow me to clarify my postulates in light of your comments.

We agree that absolute reality cannot be divided. I would argue that finite reality is also indivisible if only by projection. But let me use a mathematical analogy.

Fermat's last Theorem states that for the relationship x^n + y^n = z^n, there are only whole number solutions that would satisfy the function where n=1 and n=2

For dimensions of n=1 or n=2 there is a solution. In fact there are infinite ways to divide the 1st and 2nd dimensions. Therefore, linear and 2 dimensional realms are NOT real, (ie. velocity and acceleration).

Zero dimensions and 3 dimensions, and infinite dimensions (ie, n=0, n=3, n=infinity), do not satisfy this expression. Therefore, I conclude that cubes cannot be divided as can lines and squares.

Next, Gravity acts orthogonally to mass but this does not give mass direction. In fact, this gives mass infinite direction. Gravity is pull from the center source of projection and can be viewed as radius pointing inward. From a spherical shell of projected from a center point there are infinite radii. Every point on the sphere is a projected radius, and there are infinite radii and infinite points on the sphere.

You stated that you have difficulty seeing how all macroscopic relative motion must be spiral. But I never mention the word relative. I stated that all motion is spiral and that all spiral motion must be ABSOLUTE. This must always be the case. The Master Universe is spiral motion around still Paradise, so are the galaxies, so must be the stars and planets. They all must exhibit rotation and breathing motions as the pattern of Paradise. Galaxies expand and contract, the Sun expands and contracts in 11 year cycles, the earth must also. This 'breathing' may be quite subtle but this would explain the average 15 earthquakes a day, the tides, the continental drift, and volcanic activity due to the heaving friction (heat) of the expansion and contraction of the volume of the Earth. Even the spiral motions of tornadoes and hurricanes exhibit this spiral motion which is the combination of rotation with expansion and contraction cycles.

Regarding my postulate about all motion being spiral, this must be true for the micro and macrocosmos, and everything in between. Your picture of the Mendelbrot set is certainly not motion but it is a depiction of motion that was created by a simple algorithm set in motion by your computer and later depicted in a 2 dimensional still shot.

Regards, Louis


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2441
How about the unification of the Unqualifieds initiated by the Father I AM and the resultant Unqualified Absolute...? IMO This seems to me to be the initial stage where reality moves from potential to actuality.

IMO the Father I AM seperated his will from the non-will (personality from the reservoir of energy and spirit). So all though matter, spirit, energy etc comes from god, I would think he has seperated himself from it by the creative act of his own personality.

IMO this initial parallelism of reality leads to triunity which is the fundamental pattern of reality.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:03 pm +0000
Posts: 528
Hi boom:

0:3.21 As a time-space creature would view the origin and differentiation of Reality, the eternal and infinite I AM achieved Deity liberation from the fetters of unqualified infinity through the exercise of inherent and eternal free will, and this divorcement from unqualified infinity produced the first absolute divinity-tension. This tension of infinity differential is resolved by the Universal Absolute, which functions to unify and co-ordinate the dynamic infinity of Total Deity and the static infinity of the Unqualified Absolute.

0:4.2 1. Undeified reality ranges from the energy domains of the nonpersonal to the reality realms of the nonpersonalizable values of universal existence, even to the presence of the Unqualified Absolute.

0:4.5 This is the primal concept of original reality: The Father initiates and maintains Reality. The primal differentials of reality are the deified and the undeified — the Deity Absolute and the Unqualified Absolute. The primal relationship is the tension between them.

This tension is resolved in The Universal Absolute.

I do not understand when you speak of the 'unification' of the Unqualifieds resulting in the Unqualified Absolute.

I also do not know what you mean by 'non-will'.

Paradise, as the 4th Source and Center, IS Absolute Pattern. In Paradise all potentials ARE actuals.

Regards, Louis


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2441
Quote:
This tension is resolved in The Universal Absolute.

I do not understand when you speak of the 'unification' of the Unqualifieds resulting in the Unqualified Absolute.

I also do not know what you mean by 'non-will'.

Paradise, as the 4th Source and Center, IS Absolute Pattern. In Paradise all potentials ARE actuals.

Regards, Louis


The subject of initial reality is something I am begining to read up on in the u.b that is why I am placing the (IMO). I am definitely not an expert in interpreting the urantia book in this matter, but I will provide quotes that perhaps show what I am saying.

IMO Energy and Spirit within the Resoiver of the unqualified is not will. God the I Am is energy and the source of all energy as the I AM (Total and complete). However the u.b talks about how the I AM as everything and homogenous seperated itself into distinct parts (the unqualifieds). If all reality was a direct projection right from the I AM, there would be no need for the Unqualifieds. This triune relationship of reality is described everywhere in the book. ( Matter, mind and spirit). The unification of duality is also expressed in beings and reality. (Time and Space), (Direction and place) (male and females) (Creator Sons). We also know that Energy, Spirit, Matter can be unified by Personality.

IMO these initial transactions of reality are key to understanding how there is male and female and how triunity is such a fundamental aspect of all reality. God the Father forms a trinity when he gave origin to his eternal son, which resulted in the infinite spirit.

All potentials have not yet been realized (been put into reality). There is no limit to the infinite potentials they are infinite :).

Obviously there is alot of confusion in trying to understand ultimate reality when we try and take all the quotes of the u.b. I think when readers see something like "God is everything" and God is all personality and the I AM is everything. There is that initial urge to create a all encompossing formula that connects all reality without space inbetween. When duality and triunity enter the fundamental principles of reality though I think that is when readers begin to say wait what? How can there be triunity and duality when there is only one god? How can there be 3 gods in their own right, yet the book speak about the one and only true god. It is confusing but I feel like all the answers to these questions are layed out in the book, it just takes a long time to decipher it. Though I think there is a human limit in trying to understand ultimate reality. Even the revelators seem to sometimes hint that they are not exactly sure of all things.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 355 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google Feedfetcher


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group