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boomshuka wrote:
… Time Dilation is not a proven fact, even though it is heavily researched by those who are writing wikepedia articles. …
Listen Boom, the existence of so called time dilation is a proven fact! You can send a thousand astronauts to ISS and back, and you will find a thousand times that their clocks run behind. And I guarantee that when you would send a million more, you will observe the same time dilation a million more times.
boomshuka wrote:
… The clocks expirment is interesting, but there seems to be other variables to consider before accepting this theory as fact, etleast according to many physicists. There are many other explanations for clocks being a tick off of each other than simply that itself has changed. The motion of objects, gravity, altitude can affect the workings of an object "clock" and be an ever so slight factor.
Time dilation is real and it is here to stay. :wink: It may be a thoroughly puzzling phenomenon, but its effect is very accurately predicted by Einstein’s relativity theory. I’m not sure what 'theory' you have in mind.. What 'other variables' are there to consider, and what 'other explanations for clocks being a tick off of each other' do you mean exactly?


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Bart, I have a little problem with your time dilation claims. You wrote that the clock of an observer on top of a mountain runs faster than the clock of another observer at sea level which is due to less gravity on mountain top. But when an astronaut that goes to ISS in outer space which is even higher than the mountain and therefore less gravity, his clock runs slower than the astronaut at the mission control on earth which is nearer sea level. You said this is due to acceleration, but combining these two effects, should they not cancel each other out?


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But on further reflection, TUB said that the body of Jesus was dissolved instantly by the acceleration of time. So then time can be accelerated or slowed down.


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YSMAEL wrote:
Bart, I have a little problem with your time dilation claims. You wrote that the clock of an observer on top of a mountain runs faster than the clock of another observer at sea level which is due to less gravity on mountain top. But when an astronaut that goes to ISS in outer space which is even higher than the mountain and therefore less gravity, his clock runs slower than the astronaut at the mission control on earth which is nearer sea level. You said this is due to acceleration, but combining these two effects, should they not cancel each other out?
Ysmael - Time dilation is caused by differences in either gravity or relative velocity/acceleration. According to Wikipedia, both factors are at play in the case of ISS astronauts and are indeed opposing one another. However, since astronauts return from ISS slightly younger then those who stayed on Earth, it appears that the relative acceleration during their launch to the space station outweighs the effect of gravity.

You’ll find the formulas to calculate the (combined) effect of gravity - and velocity time dilation here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitatio ... e_dilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilat ... e_dilation


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Clocks are also affected by gravity. They will speed up at higher altitudes, but not because of time changing. Its more likely that gravitational/speed effects distort the exact working of the clocks mechanism, and that if the mechanism was changed to operate in a different way the distortion would be different. An analogy: I could form the conclusion that time slows in cold weather because the clock in my car looses time down in cold weather, or it could be ice buildup inside is making it slow. Time hasn't been affected the method of measuring time is unreliable during these conditions.

Also time dilation" has only been tested with atomic (i.e. matter based clocks). This is also not a fact of physics, even though it being shown in a positive light on wikepedia.

The only way to actually prove time dilation would be to use a clock with mechanisms that are not interacting with gravity and velocity. It would seem that Einstien himself suggested to use a clock based off of photons and ions that do no interact with matter which could be used to test this theory. However technology hasn't been around for this experiment to take place.

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As-Above-So-Below wrote:
... what of a man standing on the pole verses the man standing on the equator where the orbit of the world around the sun would be constant or cancel out any difference other than speed of the rotation of the earth. Bart should there not also be a difference between these two as well, although minuet?
Well, gravity on the poles and equator will be practically equal. And, although the Earth is spinning around its axis, the distance between the two points doesn’t change, so there will be no relative velocity or acceleration effect. Thus, there will be no time dilation between a man standing on the pole and a man on the equator..


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boomshuka wrote:
Clocks are also affected by gravity. They will speed up at higher altitudes, but not because of time changing. Its more likely that gravitational/speed effects distort the exact working of the clocks mechanism, and that if the mechanism was changed to operate in a different way the distortion would be different. An analogy: I could form the conclusion that time slows in cold weather because the clock in my car looses time down in cold weather, or it could be ice buildup inside is making it slow. Time hasn't been affected the method of measuring time is unreliable during these conditions.

Also time dilation" has only been tested with atomic (i.e. matter based clocks). This is also not a fact of physics, even though it being shown in a positive light on wikepedia.
Boomshuka, I don’t think I quite understand what you mean. Clocks run faster when there is less gravity potential. That’s all we know and that’s a well established and tested scientific fact. Time itself is not the cause of this. Time is merely the sequence of temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. But when gravity decreases, clocks run faster, people will age faster, and everything including radioactive decay speeds up. Then it can be said that time runs faster..


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But when gravity decreases, clocks run faster, people will age faster, and everything including radioactive decay speeds up. Then it can be said that time runs faster..


Or it could be said that the clock runs faster because the internal mechanisms are affected by a weaker gravity essentially it is in error. One based not on matter that is not nearly as affected by gravity, or velocity would probably run perfectly without error.

Aging faster because of a weaker gravity does not mean that time is speeding up. It just means that material is breaking down faster due to the increased pressure from gravity.

I think scientists have had a strange notion of time for a while, I mean the theory that time will stop in a black holes event horizon seems incredibly strange. The notion of time travel is also incredibly bizzare. There are scientists who still believe we could travel back in time and correct our mistakes. That is definitely the strangest thing I can think of.

I think scientists just love these theories because they can create unified theories of everything. Every other week at the bookstore there is a scientist putting out a book a new grand unified theory of all reality. Quantum phsycics is another example of just how little we really know what the heck is really happening. There is a new theory on reality every year in that field.

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As-Above-So-Below wrote:
... what of a man standing on the pole verses the man standing on the equator where the orbit of the world around the sun would be constant or cancel out any difference other than speed of the rotation of the earth. Bart should there not also be a difference between these two as well, although minuet?
As Above - My initial answer to this question (there will be no time dilation) was wrong! The situation you describe (with the Earth spinning around its axis) is equivalent to a rotating disc with a base observer at the center and a second observer at some distance (r) from the center. The second observer experiences a continuous acceleration towards the center of the disc (i.e., relative to the base observer), whereas the observer in the center does not. So there actually will be a velocity time dilation (Td) equal to:

Td = √(1 – r² ω² / c² ),

where:
r is the distance from the center of the disk (or the Earth’s radius), and
ω is the angular velocity of the disk, and
c is the speed of light.

(See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitatio ... e_dilation)


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boomshuka wrote:
Bart wrote:
But when gravity decreases, clocks run faster, people will age faster, and everything including radioactive decay speeds up. Then it can be said that time runs faster..
Or it could be said that the clock runs faster because the internal mechanisms are affected by a weaker gravity essentially it is in error. One based not on matter that is not nearly as affected by gravity, or velocity would probably run perfectly without error.

Aging faster because of a weaker gravity does not mean that time is speeding up. It just means that material is breaking down faster due to the increased pressure from gravity. …
Boomshuka - Again, TUB defines time as: "the sequence of temporal events perceived by creature consciousness". Ultimately, this definition must apply to the sequence of microscopic quantum (ultimatonic) events which projects all of our material reality. Note that I believe that (discrete) fundamental quantum/ultimatonic events are experienced sequentially; one at a time. Even in cases such as so called quantum entanglement - where (sub)atomic particles appear to be instantaneously correlated - there must be infinitesimal (immeasurably small) intervals between the successive ultimatonic events that project such entangled particles.

Thus, time, understood as "the sequence of temporal events perceived by creature consciousness", cannot be separated from our conscious perception of (material) reality. Ultimately, the (complex) sequence of ultimatonic events is what we consciously perceive as our material reality, and it also is called time by the revelators.

So, clocks running faster and matter aging faster, all must result from the increased speed of this ultimatonic event succession that somehow creates/projects our conscious perception of material reality. Thus, it is correct to say that the speed of time increases. Such increased speed of time (or decreased speed of time for that matter) is sometimes said to be caused by general relativity, but I prefer to say that general relativity (and time dilation) is itself the result of the (complex) unitary principle or mechanism (or God) that underlies all reality at the quantum/ultimatonic level.

boomshuka wrote:
I think scientists have had a strange notion of time for a while, I mean the theory that time will stop in a black holes event horizon seems incredibly strange. The notion of time travel is also incredibly bizzare. There are scientists who still believe we could travel back in time and correct our mistakes. That is definitely the strangest thing I can think of.

I think scientists just love these theories because they can create unified theories of everything. Every other week at the bookstore there is a scientist putting out a book a new grand unified theory of all reality. Quantum phsycics is another example of just how little we really know what the heck is really happening. There is a new theory on reality every year in that field.
Well, I agree that scientists sometimes have bizarre ideas. That’s all part of the creative scientific effort to understand our strange reality. Any scientific hypothesis, however, must be formulated such that it can be tested and verified, and be accepted or refuted. Otherwise it’s not science but metaphysics. And after all, most scientists haven’t read The Urantia Book. :)

As yet, no scientist has produced a testable grand unified theory or 'theory of everything'. So all such attempts remain in the metaphysical realm. However, the notion of time dilation can be tested and is accurately predicted by Einstein’s general relativity theory. So this is an example of good science! And as far as I’m concerned (as argued) the notion that time speeds up when gravity decreases and slows down when relative velocity/acceleration increases, may actually be supported by The Urantia Book.


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Bart wrote:
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Well, I agree that scientists sometimes have bizarre ideas. That’s all part of the creative scientific effort to understand our strange reality. Any scientific hypothesis, however, must be formulated such that it can be tested and verified, and be accepted or refuted. Otherwise it’s not science but metaphysics. And after all, most scientists haven’t read The Urantia Book.


True dat.

But even if there had never been a Urantia Book, science would be slowly pushing open the doors of progress.

Sometimes I wonder if, at this point in our social, physical and cultural evolution, it might be a good thing that science at large is not aware of the UB. After all, remember what happened to the fallen Planetary Prince. I doubt mankind, even mankind armed with the UB, could rush evolution any better than he could.

It just might turn out that we may have best served as the quiet voices of reason in the background, ever stating (through the example of our lives rather than our voices, which no one listens to anyways) "this is the way"...

:wink:


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Still I don't think that decaying matter increases because of variable time shifts, obviously the wear and tear created from travelling at a high speed will break down matter quicker. Time dilation hinges on the ASSUMPTION that clocks are not being affected by garavity/magentism and velocity. Either A) Clocks based on matter will slightly increase based on time speeding up or B) Clocks based on matter are slightly speeding up because of velocity,gravity/magnetism variables and not time itself. I still am inclined to believe B). Einstien himself proposed a test in which non matter based clocks are used to test the theory of time dilation, because a matter based clock experiment will be flawed. To me it is much more likely that these clocks are affected by natural forces as opposed to time itself a clock based just on photons has yet be assembled so the question still remains. Again if time dilation was a fact we would be teaching kids this in highschools etc but it is far from being a fact of nature. Wikepedia does not make something a fact, no matter how convincing it sounds.

Do people age more slowly? We don't know whether people age more slowly, because even cosmonauts don't travel fast enough for the effect to be statistically observable on their life spans.

I agree with your definition of time. I just don't agree that time is manipulated from alititude and speed. I guess that would make Solitary Messengers one of the most powerfull beings in the universe. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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boomshuka wrote:
Still I don't think that decaying matter increases because of variable time shifts, obviously the wear and tear created from travelling at a high speed will break down matter quicker. …
I agree that radioactive decay doesn’t increase or decrease "because of" an increased or decreased speed of time. I think that radioactive decay and time (as defined in TUB) are basically the same thing. Time, understood as "the sequence of temporal events perceived by creature consciousness", includes radioactive decay, which obviously is a sequence of temporal events. We even measure time by the radioactive decay of specific elements in so-called atomic clocks!

What actually may cause (local, relative) variations in both the speed of time and radioactive decay rates, is the pace of ultimatonic transactions which underlie (all) atomic organization. Ultimatonic organization fluctuating in and out of material existence, constitutes the most fundamental physical events responsible for the creation and decay of what we consciously perceive as matter. And this process is controlled by the force organizers or power directors (42:6.3).

In turn, "Local or linear gravity becomes fully operative with the appearance of the atomic organization of matter." (42:6.2) Thus, (local or linear or material) gravity seems to be a consequence of the atomic organization of matter; not vice versa.

So, the (relative, local) speed of both material decay and what we call time, may well be a function of the rate of ultimatonic organization, which (according to TUB) is basically controlled by immaterial forces.


boomshuka wrote:
… Time dilation hinges on the ASSUMPTION that clocks are not being affected by garavity/magentism and velocity. Either A) Clocks based on matter will slightly increase based on time speeding up or B) Clocks based on matter are slightly speeding up because of velocity,gravity/magnetism variables and not time itself. I still am inclined to believe B). Einstien himself proposed a test in which non matter based clocks are used to test the theory of time dilation, because a matter based clock experiment will be flawed. To me it is much more likely that these clocks are affected by natural forces as opposed to time itself a clock based just on photons has yet be assembled so the question still remains. …
I am telling you this now for the fifth time or so. All we know is that material clocks run faster when gravity decreases and/or when relative velocity decreases; not "because of" gravity or relative velocity or anything. Can’t you read? And Einstein was right, mechanical clocks are not accurate and reliable enough to measure time dilation effects on Earth, which are very small. And what exactly is a non-material clock? Do you really think photons are not material particles?


boomshuka wrote:
… Again if time dilation was a fact we would be teaching kids this in highschools etc but it is far from being a fact of nature. Wikepedia does not make something a fact, no matter how convincing it sounds.

Do people age more slowly? We don't know whether people age more slowly, because even cosmonauts don't travel fast enough for the effect to be statistically observable on their life spans.

I agree with your definition of time. I just don't agree that time is manipulated from alititude and speed. I guess that would make Solitary Messengers one of the most powerfull beings in the universe. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. …
Your apparent ignorance of the science and technology involved in time dilation theory and experiments is not a problem. But I’m beginning to slightly worry about your attitude regarding the scientific facts that I presented to you. Do you really think that time dilation is not a scientifically formalized and proven principle of all material reality? Do you really think you know better than Einstein and the whole of the physics community for almost a century? Can you perhaps back your ideas up with TUB quotes?

Many things are not taught to kids in high school. Teaching kids about time dilation, basically would require teaching them general relativity theory. Nevertheless, time dilation is a real phenomenon which we have to reckon with. For example, the clocks of satellites must be adjusted according to the effect of gravity time dilation. If you do not belief this, then I suggest that you fly a fair distance and back in a jetplain, taking an atomic clock with you. On your return you will consistently find that the atomic clock you left on the ground is a few nano-seconds behind the atomic clock you took on the plain. Good luck..


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42:6.2 Local or linear gravity becomes fully operative with the appearance of the atomic organization of matter. Preatomic matter becomes slightly gravity responsive when activated by X ray and other similar energies, but no measurable linear-gravity pull is exerted on free, unattached, and uncharged electronic-energy particles or on unassociated ultimatons.

42:6.3 Ultimatons function by mutual attraction, responding only to the circular Paradise-gravity pull. Without linear-gravity response they are thus held in the universal space drift. Ultimatons are capable of accelerating revolutionary velocity to the point of partial antigravity behavior, but they cannot, independent of force organizers or power directors, attain the critical escape velocity of deindividuation, return to the puissant-energy stage. In nature, ultimatons escape the status of physical existence only when participating in the terminal disruption of a cooled-off and dying sun.


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