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I just read my past post and decided that what I said in the end was trite and unfriendly. Just because I don't understand all of the wonders of science which are transpiring before our eyes, does not mean that they are not amazing, great and good.
Rock on Bart and all who posted on this incredible subject!


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Hey Van regarding a "time cage" here is some quotes about Time Units. It would seem that when we enlarge our "time units" we can experience more of reality in any given moment and experience more time in any given moment. I also believe that when we fuse with our adjuster we begin the path whereby our adjuster is taking us into the past and into the future within god and as a partner with god. Anyway's here are quotes about "time units". It is interesting that those who have small time units are incapable of being mature.

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1295.3) 118:1.3 There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

(1295.4) 118:1.4 Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

(1295.5) 118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

(1295.6) 118:1.6 Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.

(1295.7) 118:1.7 To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

(1295.8) 118:1.8 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present — the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

(1296.1) 118:1.9 On the levels of the infinite and the absolute the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future. I AM signifies also I WAS and I WILL BE. And this represents our best concept of eternity and the eternal.

(1296.2) 118:1.10 On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter. But the Universal Father, through the indwelling Thought Adjuster, is not thus limited in awareness but can also know of, and participate in, every temporal struggle with the problems of the creature ascent from animallike to Godlike levels of existence.

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Boom - FANTASTIC!! I do not know why this feels like I'm reading it for the first time....as it has to be the 10th at least. Every time I re-read something, it takes a whole new meaning or dimension. Profound stuff, this. Jesus kept pounding the apostles to live in the kingdom...don't wait, don't look, don't expect....live in it, it's here and now and all around. The "eternity perspective" changes your/our/my life in important and progressive ways. Peace. 8)


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alwilliams767 wrote:
… Therefore I cheerfully pay little mind to much of the "breakthrough" science which postulates that the universe is flying apart, stopping, starting, going sideways etc...
Al – I agree that it’s remarkable, even absurd, that (most) scientific minds would interpret any notion of time slowing down as: time will eventually stop or disappear; thus overlooking the much more harmonious possibility that if time slows down then at some point time may start speeding up again, instead of stopping or disappearing.. That would seem to be much more in line with TUB’s notion of space(-time) respiration. The speed of time may eternally oscillate. And Einstein’s so called cosmic constant may not be a constant at all but a variable! (See e.g. this thread: proving the existence of god)

The scientific community at large is still fixated on the idea of an absolute beginning or big bang 13.4 billion years ago. And if there is an absolute beginning, then there must be an absolute end or so called big crunch. TUB’s idea of eternally oscillating space (and time) simply doesn’t fit into their mechanical models and nihilistic view of the universe and everything.

However, The Urantia Book clearly states that universal reality has no beginning or end. If this is true, then it may just be a matter of time before science catches up and acknowledges its huge mistake. :) For example, (mysterious) circular structures seem to exist in the so called Cosmic Background Radiation, which should be either uniform or random according to big bang theories. If verified, this result would once and for all refute any big bang theory. :) (See e.g. this thread: science catching up with the urantia book yet again)


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I don't understand how scientific time slows down or speeds up. I don't understand how a second be shorter or longer than a second. How do we measure time by time? Can a minute become 59 seconds or 61 seconds? This notion of time slowing down is absurd to me. There is time because there is motion. We measure motion by time. Motion may slow down or speed up but time does not. Paradise is the only motionless thing or (no thing) in the universe and it is timeless and also spaceless.


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Yea I don't think I see how its possible for anything finite to change its relation to time based on its own motion. Isn't time for humans just a mind, personality and soul experience? There is a being that can go much faster than the speed of light yet I doubt he is actually going back in time.

Anywhos I guess that topic is above my head. Yea Van someone brought up the "time units" to me recently and I had not really given any thought as to just how relevant these "time units" are before that. I can read the papers a million times and yet I will talk to others and they will find new meaning in a passage I had read and never fully understood. I am kind of embarrased to tell people how long I have read the book because compared to some readers who have really delved into the meaning of every paper I have really just began.

Everytime I read it seems like I find something new with every paper.

It would seem though that even mortals can begin to suspect a timeless reality.

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The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.

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No single fixed position can accurately measure any other....now add motion. Now add opposing directions. Now add acceleration and deceleration. Oh man. Science has a real problem here. But agree, the more science advances, so does the perception of the universe's vastness and orderliness and opens the mind to possibilities....if not total realities. All good. Science is the only mechanism which pushes religion forward from its brittle entrenchments for religion must credit God with all realities...even if science does not....yet. Peace.


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YSMAEL wrote:
I don't understand how scientific time slows down or speeds up. I don't understand how a second be shorter or longer than a second. How do we measure time by time? Can a minute become 59 seconds or 61 seconds? This notion of time slowing down is absurd to me. There is time because there is motion. We measure motion by time. Motion may slow down or speed up but time does not. Paradise is the only motionless thing or (no thing) in the universe and it is timeless and also spaceless.
Well, I mentioned the example of the clock of an observer on the top of a mountain running slightly faster than the clock of another observer at sea-level. :) That observable fact is called gravitational time dilation, which would be due to the existence of slightly less Earth gravity on the mountain top as compared to sea-level. And when after many years of observation the two observers would meet, the sea-level observer would be several seconds younger than he should be, relative to the mountain top observer. Time measurably slowed down for the sea-level observer and his clock; relative to the mountain top observer!

So, the speed of time is relative; it is not the same for all observers under all circumstances. Another cause of this so called time dilation effect is called relative velocity time dilation; accelerated clocks run slower than clocks moving relatively uniform. These are scientifically verified facts, which we simply have to deal with in our mathematical models - and our general understanding of reality.

Now, looking out into the sky, we can time-measure events that took place (supposedly) billions of years ago, such as the expansion of the universe billions of years ago. If observations of older expansion rates consistently appear to be exponentially higher than observations of (much) younger expansion rates, then this can mean two things: Either universe expansion is accelerating as a function of distance from Earth (Hubble’s law), or time itself is slowing down, making older cosmological events appear to (relatively) proceed increasingly fast..


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So the observer views one event as taking place faster than someone who is at a different altitude? Is that why maritimers are so laid back? Lol. I don't know I mean this sounds like a theory based entirley on the subjective experience of a human being. I have a hard time seeing this theory as something likely. But I will keep an open mind.

GPS satellites are not adjusted for time dilation, so how is it that these are in line with clocks on earth in the 0 gravity of space. Shouldn't GPS then be slightly different? The clocks adjusting at different levels seems to be one of those more far out there theorys I don't think it is widely accepted. Etleast not yet.

This theory reminds of the black holes and wormhole theorys from the early 90's that take people to other parts of the galaxy.(The theory that if gravity becomes so great that eventually in a black hole you could go into the event horizon. Essentially I suppose this would be a place of infinite time dilation.)

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Bart wrote:
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Well, I mentioned the example of the clock of an observer on the top of a mountain running slightly faster than the clock of another observer at sea-level. That observable fact is called gravitational time dilation, which would be due to the existence of slightly less Earth gravity on the mountain top as compared to sea-level. And when after many years of observation the two observers would meet, the sea-level observer would be several seconds younger than he should be, relative to the mountain top observer. Time measurably slowed down for the sea-level observer and his clock; relative to the mountain top observer!

So, the speed of time is relative; it is not the same for all observers under all circumstances. Another cause of this so called time dilation effect is called relative velocity time dilation; accelerated clocks run slower than clocks moving relatively uniform. These are scientifically verified facts, which we simply have to deal with in our mathematical models - and our general understanding of reality.


Could it be that it was not time that was affected by the changed in gravity or acceleration but the mechanism inside the clocks they used?


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boomshuka wrote:
So the observer views one event as taking place faster than someone who is at a different altitude? …
No.. Different observers/persons experience time differently due to different local circumstances such as gravitational force or their relative velocities. Time literally slows down in an accelerating rocket or space-ship relative to time on Earth. Astronauts actually return from missions on the international space station (ISS) having aged less than the mission control crew that stayed on earth, and with their clocks running behind. The difference is in the order of 1 year in every 80 years (See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilat ... e_dilation)

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… I don't know I mean this sounds like a theory based entirley on the subjective experience of a human being. I have a hard time seeing this theory as something likely. But I will keep an open mind. …
The foregoing is not a theory or subjective experience; it is verified/verifiable scientific fact! I presented it to illustrate that the experiential passage of time is not a constant process. And when we observe far distant events that took place billions of years ago and billions of light-years away there is no reason to assume, in an ever expanding and contracting (respirating) universe, that time on Earth now runs at the same pace as time did back then and there.

So, yes, I think that the apparent (observed) accelerating expansion of the universe (which in itself is quite impossible) may be nicely explained by a theory of time slowing down. The growth of the universe then only appears to accelerate, whereas it may actually be slowing down; which would be in agreement with The Urantia Book. :)


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I also remember it was mentioned many times in the UB about the differences in time measurement in different spheres in the local system, local universe, superuniverse, and even in Havona, but the writers were able to make their equivalence to our time measurement on Urantia. So I believe time is constant in all spheres but the only difference is in the unit of measurement.


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YSMAEL wrote:
Could it be that it was not time that was affected by the changed in gravity or acceleration but the mechanism inside the clocks they used?
The aging and relative pace of everything is affected by gravity or relative acceleration; not just clocks. For example, the observer on the mountain top looking down, would actually see everything slightly slowed down at sea-level, with sea-level clocks running slightly behind his own clock. And he himself would age slightly faster than people at sea-level.

I think not just the macroscopic mechanism of clocks (or of a human beings for that matter) is affected, but the very microscopic constituents of atoms/ultimatons. As I mentioned earlier, according to TUB, time is the linear sequence/succession of temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. (130:7.4) The very stream of (quantum/ultimatonic) events or the projection of reality that we call consciousness (including any perceived clocks) might then speed up or slow down as a result of gravity or acceleration.. :)


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No.. Different observers/persons experience time differently due to different local circumstances such as gravitational force or their relative velocities. Time literally slows down in an accelerating rocket or space-ship relative to time on Earth. Astronauts actually return from missions on the international space station (ISS) having aged less than the mission control crew that stayed on earth, and with their clocks running behind. The difference is in the order of 1 year in every 80 years (See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilat ... e_dilation)


Yes I read up on all of that, but those are theories not facts. I am open to the possiblity that something like this is possible though, I just am skeptical right now.

Time Dilation is not a proven fact, even though it is heavily researched by those who are writing wikepedia articles.

The clocks expirment is interesting, but there seems to be other variables to consider before accepting this theory as fact, etleast according to many physicists. There are many other explanations for clocks being a tick off of each other than simply that itself has changed. The motion of objects, gravity, altitude can affect the workings of an object "clock" and be an ever so slight factor.

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YSMAEL wrote:
I also remember it was mentioned many times in the UB about the differences in time measurement in different spheres in the local system, local universe, superuniverse, and even in Havona, but the writers were able to make their equivalence to our time measurement on Urantia. So I believe time is constant in all spheres but the only difference is in the unit of measurement.
Well, I guess if you are familiar with the details of the mechanism of space respiration and all relative universal motion, like the revelators, then you could work out any local differences in the passage of time.. :)

I think I quite sufficiently explained that time is not constant. And what The Urantia Book calls the variable time unit in mortal experience (118:1.4) is a completely different (unrelated) concept, referring to the quality our human perspective on past present and future circumstances..
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118:1.4 Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.


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