Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:13 pm +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52 am +0000
Posts: 92
ubizmo wrote:
Since miracles are by definition exceptional events, it's clear that they can't be relied upon. I don't think we need the UB to tell us that. As for building faith upon them...I'm not clear on what this means. Does it mean, for example, that we should be spiritually unmoved by miracles? When people experience spiritual conversion in response to a miracle, has something gone wrong?

A more plausible interpretation might be that we shouldn't demand miracles in order to have faith. Personally, I don't think we have much control over how much faith we have, and what elicits it, but setting that aside, I can understand the point that we shouldn't demand miracles. My questions are more along the lines of, How should we understand miracles that do apparently happen?

I quite agree with you in that we should not demand miracles. And, as you say, miracles are exceptional events so it is quite hard to define the circumstances where they occur.

What Jesus repeatedly stated, according to TUB, that miracles do not build a lasting foundation for faith. And that is my experience as well. Miracles leave a strong impression, but unfortunately it tends to dilute over time. So, yes, miracles do cause faith but for gaining lasting faith you need other means.

As for understanding miracles - well, if we understood them, would they be miracles any more?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Gremlin wrote:
A worm's eye view is not a God's eye view. The human definition of "natural" has always changed and will always change. Sometimes the human conception is faulty, sometimes it sees the shadow of the truth.


The human conception of "natural" is linked to the human canon of natural laws, which is always incomplete. So yes, it's a moving target. Nevertheless, I don't think the miraculous is an empty concept. The Resurrection was a miracle by any meaningful standard. Ask yourself this: Suppose there had been no resurrection. Suppose Jesus departed this world and left his body to decompose at the normal rate. Would we have heard of him today? would the gospel writers have been motivated to write his story? We don't know, of course, but it doesn't seem far-fetched to think that he would be remembered only as an obscure figure, if at all. But the miracle ofnthe resurrection changed all that. It launched the largest faith movement in history.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
Jesus of Nazareth was a miraculous person
HIS Bestowel IS The Real Miracle !

'' Suppose there had been no resurrection.''

Regardless of Any Supposeing or What IFs
Michaels Choice Of Urantia for His Final incarnational bestowal
Was and IS A Success , The inspiration of his Life IS On Record
and His Mission and Message Of Revealing GOD To Man
And The Good News Teachings of His Gospel IS A Success !

It Just Takes Animal Nature Retarted Mortals A Few
Thousand years or More For the TRUTHS To Finaly Sink in
To Any Normal Minds .

Page 1331 - "Urantia mortals have varying concepts of the miraculous, but to us who live as citizens of the local universe there are few miracles, and of these by far the most intriguing are the incarnational bestowals of the Paradise Sons. The appearance in and on your world, by apparently natural processes, of a divine Son, we regard as a miracle - the operation of universal laws beyond our understanding. Jesus of Nazareth was a miraculous person."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
ubizmo wrote:
The human conception of "natural" is linked to the human canon of natural laws, which is always incomplete. So yes, it's a moving target. Nevertheless, I don't think the miraculous is an empty concept. ...
Agreed. And discussing the nature of apparent miracles is possible because we may simply declare any experience outside our current (scientific/material) concept of reality, as metaphysical or supernatural or miraculous. TUB clearly indicates that all such apparent miracles are ultimately intelligible, which may be all the human mind can understand about the true nature of so-called miracles..
ubizmo wrote:
... The Resurrection was a miracle by any meaningful standard. ...
You originally asked how we are to understand miraculous healings according to TUB. That question was answered. And the revelators agree with you that "Jesus of Nazareth was a miraculous person" even to their own capability of understanding the "operation of universal laws". (Thanks Coop :))..
Quote:
120:4.5 Urantia mortals have varying concepts of the miraculous, but to us who live as citizens of the local universe there are few miracles, and of these by far the most intriguing are the incarnational bestowals of the Paradise Sons. The appearance in and on your world, by apparently natural processes, of a divine Son, we regard as a miracle — the operation of universal laws beyond our understanding. Jesus of Nazareth was a miraculous person.
So, I really don’t see your problem with TUB’s explanation of miracles..


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Bart wrote:
ubizmo wrote:
... The Resurrection was a miracle by any meaningful standard. ...
You originally asked how we are to understand miraculous healings according to TUB.


Actually, I didn't. My original post on the subject of miracles, the 2nd post in this thread, didn't mention healings at all. It was a more general comment about the UB's treatment of miracles. I turned to healings after that as a concrete example.

Quote:
That question was answered.


Maybe the fault is mine. Does the UB give us reason to reject the authenticity of cases such as the Rita Klaus case, since it goes well beyond the realm of "mental, emotional, or nervous" ailment? It's still not clear.

And on the subject of things Catholic, the Catholic Church investigates alleged miracle cures, and rejects the vast majority of them. They do this as part of the investigation of candidates for canonization into sainthood. Specifically, they investigate cases of prayers to deceased human beings for intercession. The UB tells us that Urantian mortals are often confused about who they should pray to, but this confusion doesn't prevent the prayer from reaching its appropriate recipient. But does this include prayers to saints or those believed to be saints? Does the UB give us reason to reject the authenticity of healings that seem to ensue from such prayers? Maybe I just have too much curiosity about these things.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
ubizmo wrote:
... Does the UB give us reason to reject the authenticity of cases such as the Rita Klaus case, since it goes well beyond the realm of "mental, emotional, or nervous" ailment? It's still not clear. ...
Of course TUB does not "give us reason to reject the authenticity of cases such as the Rita Klaus case"! Why is this "still not clear" to you? :-s


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Bart wrote:
ubizmo wrote:
... Does the UB give us reason to reject the authenticity of cases such as the Rita Klaus case, since it goes well beyond the realm of "mental, emotional, or nervous" ailment? It's still not clear. ...
Of course TUB does not "give us reason to reject the authenticity of cases such as the Rita Klaus case"! Why is this "still not clear" to you? :-s


Because the UB has little to say that is explicitly relevant to cases of this sort. For example, in a previous post you indicated that her case was one of faith causing the healing, raher than vice versa. This doesn't really fit the facts. Klaus's attitude prior to the healing was the very opposite of faith. She was bitter and resistant.

Moreover, the statements in the UB give us little idea of the limits, if any, of this kind of healing. The UB gives detailed information about many other things, but is rather vague on this subject, that's all.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
ubizmo wrote:
... Klaus's attitude prior to the healing was the very opposite of faith. She was bitter and resistant. ...
Todd, that is misinformation.. Read your own reference: http://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/rita-klaus/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Bart wrote:
Todd, that is misinformation.. Read your own reference: http://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/rita-klaus/


You know, you're right. That is misinformation. Methinks I was led astray by being argumentative. The actual story starts with Rita Klaus in a state of bitterness, but by the time she is ready to go to Medugorje she has already experienced a strong conversion. I apologize for the misinformation.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
That's okay. :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
ubizmo wrote:
... The UB tells us that Urantian mortals are often confused about who they should pray to, but this confusion doesn't prevent the prayer from reaching its appropriate recipient. But does this include prayers to saints or those believed to be saints? Does the UB give us reason to reject the authenticity of healings that seem to ensue from such prayers? Maybe I just have too much curiosity about these things.
It seems Rita Klaus often prayed to Mary; "the mother of God". I’m not sure whom she actually asked to be healed though.. I guess it’s the intention or valuable thought that counts in any prayer. And most likely, God would take a prayer directed to Saint Mary coming from you (or me, for that matter) not that seriously.. :)

By the way, the worship of Jesus (who was after all just the mortal incarnation of our Creator Son) is (of course) a central theme in all Christian religions, not just Roman Catholicism. And TUB states that "it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.."
Quote:
7:3.3 The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province. Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.

7:3.7 It is the motivating thought, the spiritual content, that validates the mortal supplication. Words are valueless.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Bart wrote:
It seems Rita Klaus often prayed to Mary; "the mother of God". I’m not sure whom she actually asked to be healed though.. I guess it’s the intention or valuable thought that counts in any prayer. And most likely, God would take a prayer directed to Saint Mary coming from you (or me, for that matter) not that seriously.. :)

By the way, the worship of Jesus (who was after all just the mortal incarnation of our Creator Son) is (of course) a central theme in all Christian religions, not just Roman Catholicism. And TUB states that "it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.."


Do you think that prayers for healing should be considered "materialistic"?

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:10 am +0000
Posts: 1945
Yes.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:11 pm +0000
Posts: 392
Location: Joshua Tree
A caterpillar will need to know caterpillar things. Hence the Urantia Book for us caterpillars.
A butterfly will need to know butterfly things. I guess we'll get that manual when we get there. 8)

_________________
Slyde


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52 am +0000
Posts: 92
slyde wrote:
A caterpillar will need to know caterpillar things. Hence the Urantia Book for us caterpillars.
A butterfly will need to know butterfly things. I guess we'll get that manual when we get there. 8)


Well said! Can't wait to see the butterfly manual (and get the butterfly body!)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot], nnunn


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group