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Also, I don't see how it's possible to know that it's possible for anyone to have that kind of experience.


Than you have no Faith.

Faith isn't an idea about something, its an actuall grasping of spirit substance. Spirit substance has gravity and can be grasped by the mortal mind. Its also everywhere.

Think of spirit substance "unity substance" as everywhere and as faith-grasp as literall as possible. -grasping spirit substance-.

Its probably best to use some sort of picture in your mind of all these things even spirit substance. That is what helps me.

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ubizmo wrote:
Bart wrote:
Correct.. But there still might be a way to (just) verify the existence of God in this lifetime..:)


I take it that you're referring to some form of direct experiential verification, some kind of religious experience. I'm not sure whether that sort of thing counts as verification or a sense of being relieved of the need to seek verification. I have the idea--not well-formed--that verification is the sort of thing that is inherently public. But people who have had powerful religious experiences seem to experience a change in worldview such that matters of verification lose significance.

Not having had such an experience, I can't say for sure. Also, I don't see how it's possible to know that it's possible for anyone to have that kind of experience.
I think that our experiential material realities of multiple separate finite things, are merely (low dimensional) projections of a single underlying infinite spiritual principle: God. Hence, the apparent (macroscopic) correlation and complex patterns of physical matter, i.e., of its most fundamental physical constituent(s): ultimatons.

Everything is ultimately one thing. What we experience as our personal material reality, may in fact be merely a complex distributed (finite) fraction in time and space of this singular infinite source and center. At any infinitesimal moment, only one infinitesimal 'thing' exists: God, who is absolute spirit and absolute personality. That’s it, that must be the only real fact of reality.

According to such a theory, what we experience as our physical reality of different things and personalities, is actually an 'illusion' which is somehow created and projected as our personal consciousness of this one, omnipotent (and omnipresent) God.

For us lowly humans, this spiritual Truth may only be experientially knowable in the form of some conscious sense of Unity. Whether such a significant (personal) experience would count as a public verification, may depend on the resulting spiritual fruits.

Like you, I didn't have such a spiritual experience myself. I just think it might be possible.. :)


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Yea in reality the only personality that exists is the father. He "bestows" personality to creatures. Your personality comes from the father, hence father-identification is what leads to your survival because you must self identify with Reality itself and the Father is reality. So its not really a figure of speach to say you are literally God's son/daughter. He has literally spawned your personality from himself hahahah and given himself "thought adjuster" to be with you. Hahah not sure if Spawned is the right word to use though lol perhaps -created- would be better.

My favourite story of ultimate reality is this.
Quote:
The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain


The father's ability of -Infinite creative power- boggles my mind perhaps more than anything else.


As to actuall knowingness, I have to admit I have not personally met any 3rd circler's or higher haha, and I am certainly not one myself.....but I imagine a few are out there. "Very few mortals take delight"....But Very Few could = a few thousand maybe more.....lol. maybe 10 thousand...

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Our material situation may metaphorically be compared to a modern object-oriented computer program. Formal logic may not account for the spiritual aspect(s) of reality, but the following computational model is 100% logically correct and indicates that it is possible (even likely) that our complex physical universe of multiple things and beings is produced by a single underlying creative principle.

An object-oriented computer program can consist of just a single base-class or object, which is defined in the fixed program code or logic. When the program is run on a computer, the object may replicate itself and create a universe of interacting functional units, which may all be similar but different. The objects may even be displayed on the computer screen as apparently simultaneously operating and interacting individual systems.

Such (visual) illusions are commonly produced by a single CPU, which basically executes or iterates a computer program sequentially; one instruction at a time. However, the machine performs millions of calculations per second, and it may perfectly balance and distribute its computation time/cycles among many thousands of logically separate objects.

So, logically/computationally a single processor (or cause) can seamlessly simultaneously sustain unlimited physical objects if the speed of calculation would be infinite.. Of course, TUB indicates that God is not exactly a computer program, but there might be some conceptual similarities..
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42:11.1 In the evaluation and recognition of mind it should be remembered that the universe is neither mechanical nor magical; it is a creation of mind and a mechanism of law. But while in practical application the laws of nature operate in what seems to be the dual realms of the physical and the spiritual, in reality they are one. The First Source and Center is the primal cause of all materialization and at the same time the first and final Father of all spirits. The Paradise Father appears personally in the extra-Havona universes only as pure energy and pure spirit — as the Thought Adjusters and other similar fragmentations.


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Thus, modern computers enable us to logically verify the possibility of a single creative principle underlying our entire known physical universe. Mathematical/computational models show that basically a single (iterated) logical rule, can produce and sustain as many (infinitely) complex evolving structures in as many dimensions you want, that is, if you just assume the existence of a central processing unit (or source) with infinite processing speed/capacity.

So called 'artificial intelligence' can partially be seen as exploring the logical limits of such a 'computational paradigm'. Apart from 'brute force' systems that are more complex than the relatively simple real-world problems they solve, AI has also produced some fundamentally simple, but seemingly intelligent systems, which may inspire us philosophically.. :)


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By the way, if we think of ourselves as (basically) conscious physical objects, created as a complex consequence of the inherently simple infinite iteration of a finite set of logical rules by a powerful computer, then the speed of computation would actually be irrelevant for the quantitative nature of our material/temporal experience. In such a model, our perception of time would just be a (limited/finite) conscious sense of the fundamentally sequential order of complex physical events; irrespective of central processing speed..
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105:1.3 The I AM is the Infinite; the I AM is also infinity. From the sequential, time viewpoint, all reality has its origin in the infinite I AM, whose solitary existence in past infinite eternity must be a finite creature’s premier philosophic postulate. The concept of the I AM connotes unqualified infinity, the undifferentiated reality of all that could ever be in all of an infinite eternity.

130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.


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I would like to bring the metaphor even further.

Yes, ordinary computers are sequential devices but even they often contain several processors that concurrently process the data. A severe limitation of computers is that they can access the memory only if they know the address. That requires different kinds of lookup tables to make processing reasonably fast.

Humans, on the contrary, have brains that are massively parallel in processing. We have 100 billion (10^11) neurons, each of which has around 10 000 connections to other neurons. The processing takes place all over the brains at once. Hence, a complex visual scene can be processed in a split second. That makes it possible for us to make sense of our environment and do it quickly enough to run from a predator (and not trip to our feet while doing that).

What is best with the human brains is that they are content-addressable. Think about your spouse and you can immediately access a huge amount of information related to them. Think about your father, and you'll get another pile. Think of them both together, and you'll get information about their relation. A computer would have to do separate searches from separate tables and then combine them.

Human brains are still subject to limitations of time and space. Hence, the processing done by the brains needs to be completed before the result is needed. Otherwise we have severe problems in coping with the space (=our environment).

God, on the contrary, is not dependent on time and space, but exists outside both of them. This makes it irrelevant to determine the "speed of computation of God" (which, in itself, is an absurd statement). God has all the time to make all the "calculations" that He wants. And I'm quite certain that our brains dwarf in comparison of size, let alone in other aspects.

However, this is not the most important aspect of God (and humans), by a wide margin. Instead, Free Will and Love are. And those are aspects that no computer has. The whole of the meaningful universe has been built on them.


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pertti wrote:
... this is not the most important aspect of God (and humans), by a wide margin. Instead, Free Will and Love are. And those are aspects that no computer has. The whole of the meaningful universe has been built on them.
Agreed! :D


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Furthering the analogy to a different dimension:

Our mortal body equals the hardware in a computer.

Our mind is the software in the computer.

Our spirit is the purpose that the software is used for.

Our soul is the reason why that purpose exists.

Hence, when our body dies and decays and the software is stopped, our spirit will be moved via the celestial network to brand new hardware made of morontia matter and we are given a mind capable of mota. Our spirit, personality and soul, however, stay the same.


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Random poetry....hahah nice..... let me try one off the top of my head hahaha. Disclaimer (not necessarily in line with the u.b), but I will try.

And Love is the spark of life that ignites the personality, as love carries the personality to becoming father-identified, they together push as one hand on the lever of unselfish service so that the fulcrum of the spirit of truth can power multiply the personality into infinity. Than as the personality son of infinity begins to discern the outworking will of the farther threw the supreme, his/her personality orientates cosmically to the flow of all reality, at which point he has established himself as a spiritual adult in the kingdom of heaven.

And if by chance a personality goes threw life with only a small flicker of faith, god will still see to make him upright in the mansion worlds and be made whole threw the rehabilitation of mota substance.

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pertti wrote:
Furthering the analogy to a different dimension:

Our mortal body equals the hardware in a computer.

Our mind is the software in the computer.

Our spirit is the purpose that the software is used for.

Our soul is the reason why that purpose exists.

Hence, when our body dies and decays and the software is stopped, our spirit will be moved via the celestial network to brand new hardware made of morontia matter and we are given a mind capable of mota. Our spirit, personality and soul, however, stay the same.
I think modern computational models/theories indicate that it is logically possible that God exists as the single cause/origin of our coherent and fundamentally sequential physical universe in time and space. In such a computer analogy, God is the equivalent of the total running system, i.e., the (electronic) hardware mechanism and the fixed software rules or logic.

In an object-oriented computational model, our material consciousness and sense of time may be the automatic result or function of the sequential/computational order of the complex stream of (quantum physical) events which (apparently) constitute our coherent, individual/personal perception or experience of reality.

And (as mentioned) TUB suggests that, "human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend [survive] the material sequence of temporal events" (130:7.4). And personality itself (God) is changeless/fixed..
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0:5.11 The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


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I found out a long time ago that Human put way to much effort into complicating things, thus making it harder than it has to be to experience, feel, and know something.

When it comes to God, it is simple....be truly sincere and humble in wanting to know, and you will.

over thinking is a barrier, as well as ego. and all those boxxed up concept of how You think it is supposed to be.

God is already here in front of you and inside you ...the only reason a person does not know it, is because they won't let them selves.

But once you have and you Have your Spiritual Awakening, or Mystic experience, you will KNOW with out Doubt, and you will only have other awaken souls to shear such a kindred experience.


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Beautifully said Barry. That reminds me of a couple quotes, that I am about to adulter for the sake of reference.

Some men are befogged by much thinking, and the world is full of men with Idea's but few with ideal's.

These men that jesus referred to, who we can all relate to would do better to have an exchange of idea's for ideals :).....And an exchange of mindal thinking for transcendal soul searching for god himself. Amen :) . Some good advice for myself included :).

When will we give up our own idea's about the kingdom that end in futile yearning and just "obey" the truth and actively search for god in our own soul? hahaha I can relate to that struggle!!..Untill we find god I suppose for the most part all reality is only subjective, but with god it becomes real :).

Once man discovers god and choose's to do his will, he will know intellectually and spiritually the realm of truth :).

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1:5.3 God is not hiding from any of his creatures.

1:2.8 Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father.


1:5.3 God is not hiding from any of his creatures. He is unapproachable to so many orders of beings only because he “dwells in a light which no material creature can approach.” The immensity and grandeur of the divine personality is beyond the grasp of the unperfected mind of evolutionary mortals. He “measures the waters in the hollow of his hand, measures a universe with the span of his hand. It is he who sits on the circle of the earth, who stretches out the heavens as a curtain and spreads them out as a universe to dwell in.” “Lift up your eyes on high and behold who has created all these things, who brings out their worlds by number and calls them all by their names”; and so it is true that “the invisible things of God are partially understood by the things which are made.” Today, and as you are, you must discern the invisible Maker through his manifold and diverse creation, as well as through the revelation and ministration of his Sons and their numerous subordinates.


1:5.4 Even though material mortals cannot see the person of God, they should rejoice in the assurance that he is a person; by faith accept the truth which portrays that the Universal Father so loved the world as to provide for the eternal spiritual progression of its lowly inhabitants; that he “delights in his children.” God is lacking in none of those superhuman and divine attributes which constitute a perfect, eternal, loving, and infinite Creator personality.


1:5.7 Without God and except for his great and central person, there would be no personality throughout all the vast universe of universes. God is personality.


1:5.8 Notwithstanding that God is an eternal power, a majestic presence, a transcendent ideal, and a glorious spirit, though he is all these and infinitely more, nonetheless, he is truly and everlastingly a perfect Creator personality, a person who can “know and be known,” who can “love and be loved,” and one who can befriend us; while you can be known, as other humans have been known, as the friend of God. He is a real spirit and a spiritual reality.


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ubizmo wrote:
But people who have had powerful religious experiences seem to experience a change in worldview such that matters of verification lose significance.

Not having had such an experience, I can't say for sure. Also, I don't see how it's possible to know that it's possible for anyone to have that kind of experience.


Not all people have powerful religious experiences, at least in the sense that this phrase is usually understood. My experiences have not been like "flashes in the sky" but rather like a "tree extending its roots to the soil" or "the baserock solidly staying at its place under the starry sky". Powerful, yes, but not instantaneous nor flashy.

Why I believe everyone can have their experience is because the celestial forces are doing their utmost to make sure that everyone makes an informed choice regarding their eternal life and that they are very resourceful in that work. God having given a fragment of Himself to serve every single one of us, individually helping us to become like Him, is certainly the most powerful way of making that happen.


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