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After reading paper 93:5 and 6 the evidence that Abraham evolved from ambitious military campaigner to a more conscientious spiritual leader can be seen. In his younger days Abraham's personal ambitions may have been more important to him than that of the one god teachings. However the teachings were a great tool in justifying his conquests. During these years the papers talk about a rift between Melchizedek and Abraham over his conquests. This rift between teacher and pupil is not repaired until Abraham gives up the sword.

Did Abraham have to take up the sword to advance the teachings of Melchizadek? Probably not, but personal ambition to conquer all of Caanan required the sword.

Mark


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If that is true, that the sword was needed than, Is it still needed today, Persons of power seem to think so, and may in there mind believe they are serving a higher cause.

Did Mel, and or God approve of the methods to advance Civilization through Barbarian mean, I read the U.B. and get the feeling it is seen as just part of the process. Not sure i am ok with that.

Today's wars and killings are about Greed, but in the long run do they serve a Divine Plan...I am uncomfortable with that idea.


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Wow! Awesome thread!!!

Does the end justify the means??? Applied, in this thread to Mel’s choosing of Abraham. Very interesting question JB!!!~

Here is my uneducated take:

For me, at least this thread of “does the end justify the means” must take 2 parallel courses.

First, Mel, in his choosing of Abraham… did he foresee the bloodshed and the wars? Did he foresee the gradual warping of his philosophy which would so pervert the Jewish religion as to eventuate into the eventual rejection of the Son of Man by the so
called “Children of Abraham”? I wonder how much he could see into the future. I do not know. I rather believe that he, like us, has a very limited view into the future, and was simply doing his best to prepare a backwards planet for the bestowal on a Creator Son. I suspect that he knew this path would not be pretty, as things on this particular crazy and misguided world NEVER seem to go prettily. But something had to be done. And with the foreknowledge granted to his type of personality (quantity unknown here), he choose and groomed what he felt was the best person, racially, to go out and start a monotheistic religion. Then he let him go, and the rest, as they say, is history.

I do not believe for a second that Mel felt that the subsequent bloodshed, warmongering and tyranny of the Jewish rulers and priesthood was good or warranted. However, I do believe that he understood and still understands that is was what was going to happen, regardless, given the animal tendencies of our species.

And so is was, and so it still is. Even with Adjusters, it seems that the bulk of humanity, being unaware of this reality, is little removed from the hostility and antagonism which so earmarked our forefathers. At least to me, a soft and weak product of an industrial age of progress. No doubt, were I thrust back into those days (pre-adjuster) the violence and moral depravity of the people of those ages would leave me speechless.

And that brings me to the second course of this discussion:

And that is, for me, as an individual, does the end justify the means. And to that I can say NO! Heck, most times I can not do the right thing even when I am trying. Doing something wrong to achieve a “greater good”, for me at least, is a sure road to failure. And in this small way, I share something with the great Mel, a being so far above me, what when I think of him and what he did, I am awestruck. Mel never condoned violence of force being used to do good. He, however has enough wisdom to be able to manipulate humanity to produce something of incredible goodness, warts and all, a real monotheistic religion.

And that is something I feel grateful to him for.


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Al, I think I agree with you 100% :) When Mel chose Abe, bloody wars may have been unavoidable in order to start a civilization based on spiritual truth, given the tribal violence and moral backwardness at the time in the middle east region of the world.. Nevertheless, Palastine was chosen because it was centrally located with reference to the then existent trade, travel, and civilization of the world. (93:5.2)

But today, starting a war is never unavoidable. Modern (pseudo-)democratic superpowers are perfectly in control of their military forces. In our time, war only devastates civilization. TUB describes it as "a ruinous reversion to these early methods of violent adjustment of the irritations of human interassociations." (70:1.1)

The Thought Adjusters and Spirit of Truth influence on our relatively advanced modern civilization may not be very noticeable to us. But today most violence is basically under control. And starting a war should be outlawed by mankind as a whole. (71:5.1)

It seems to me that a 700 billion dollar yearly war budget is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on the physical and moral ruin of human civilization..


Last edited by Bart on Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:27 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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well said both of you, I have had an uneasy feeling over the year about the violence that our spirit friends have seemingly been so non-paused by... at least that is how i had interpreted it.

The power of thought has so much to offer in changing the world if followed by courageous action, i.e. Gandhi and many others

I am also so proud of the Salem Missionary and the amazing work they did.


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The ability to make war on another country or state should be illegal world wide...in the U.S. one state cannot make war on another state.

The consequence of this would be the need for a strong police force to make sure war or terrorism of any kind doesn't happen. Jesus talks about a world government that would combine all of the worlds military might into a world police force.

If we could get there we would see that there can be no need for nuclear weapons in a police action. This would be a big step back from self destruction which seems eminent at this point.

"The greatest affliction of the cosmos is never to have been afflicted." Humans only learn wisdom by experiencing tribulation.

gray


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So in the book there is much about the evolution and hopeful development of us Human-beings.

And so far there has been the extinction of the Orange, Blue, Green, and Purple races, as well as the elimination of some early cults and religions thought to be inferior or wicked.

as-well under the guise of Religion the Aztec's, and many Native American Tribes have gone the way of history, I am sure the same is true in other country's.

Now we are seeing in our news many wars? conflict that are bringing about ?Change? at some great coast, mostly for Oil and other riches, Some conflict I see an oppressed majority finally fighting for rights and freedom all-in-all good, but still we seem to be such a Violent species.....why, and is it in the end serving God?


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140:5.21 So often persecution does follow peace. But young people and brave adults never shun difficulty or danger. “Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends.” And a fatherly love can freely do all these things — things which brotherly love can hardly encompass. And progress has always been the final harvest of persecution.


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P.1489 - §3
Peace will not come to Urantia until every so-called sovereign nation surrenders its power to make war into the hands of a representative government of all mankind. Political sovereignty is innate with the peoples of the world. When all the peoples of Urantia create a world government, they have the right and the power to make such a government SOVEREIGN; and when such a representative or democratic world power controls the world's land, air, and naval forces, peace on earth and good will among men can prevail--but not until then.


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Yes Coop.. And I think that if the entire world population could now vote on any reasonable proposition to outlaw and effectively prohibit all wars, then such an idea would receive at least a 99% approval rate. :) Only a few million people, maybe even (much) less, might vote against it..

So, why do we still have bloody wars? The problem seems to be primarily a lack of effective world wide democratic organization, and secondarily a lack of good ideas..


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Yeah . Its ALL About $$$ Money , Power , Political
and National Ideals ...

Theres a UB Quote im lookin for , an cant find
that sez something like
When Mankind No Longer Has Weapons
He Will Kill each other With Sticks an Stones ...

Us and Them

And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
Moved from side to side
Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside
Down and Out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny that's what the fightings all about
Get out of the way, it's a busy day
And I've got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died

Pink Floyd Us And Them Lyrics


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J. Barry wrote:
Some conflict I see an oppressed majority finally fighting for rights and freedom all-in-all good, but still we seem to be such a Violent species.....why, and is it in the end serving God?


Well, it would be easier for everyone if we weren't so violent. However, even in our current state, God can and will turn bad into good - it is His nature. It just is harder for us this way.


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correct me if wrong. there written somewhere in UB, which goes somtehing to the effect, "Nature is the natural habits of God" and " God did not create by a miraculous/magic means" and ' ...the fittest may survive and contniue....'.

If these are true, then Abraham's action is only a natural action of a natural man; and that is not far out from the circle. This is similar as to why is there evil in the world; ..God's version of perfection and perfect judgment is not like what we think of,> Abraham is simply acting out his evolutionary-created animal man as he is suppose to;he is not perfect yet and imperfect animal man commit all such 'unacceptable habits'; the habits/weakness which needs to be address and which we still struggle with to this day and God is helping us with these very problem. In no way that God condone such weakness, inspite of steering us towards the more perfrect ways, niether will he intrude the wisdom of free agency of his creatures; Our perfection and ascension will takes thousands/million? of years to come and all along this great span of time will we continue to experience and see these ' terrible ways'.

What is death to God? What is God's version/perpsective of evil and sin? What is Gods view on killing, war, and survival of the fittest? --- all is there in UB. waiting to be digest.


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Sometimes when I think about this kind of stuff, I think that we are only in the first stages of civilization. That we have a long, long way to go before we become truly civilized as a race. in so many ways we mirror our barbaric ancestors…. greed, cruelty, lust… as the authors, say, Mankind’s living environment may change but his nature remains quite constant.

But to me at least, this is a hopeful sign. It say to me that we are still an immature species, with a long way to go before we grow into ourselves and mature. It gives me a reason to hope for the future, a future which incrementally we as a race ARE achieving.

If one looks too closely at the world of today, it is easy to become disillusioned. So much war, grief, cruelty, and sorrow. But step back a moment if you will and the picture changes dramatically. So much is better than before. No longer can a bloodthirsty dictator kill off a portion of his/her population without the world noticing, condemning and, to some extent, acting. People, it IS getting better every day.

Evolution, social, physical religious and cultural, is a slow process. But it is terribly effective. Our lives, our children’s lives and the lives of their children will further the goodness of the individual, the nations, the race and eventually of the world. Patience is key here, patience and an eye on the big picture. Man will not outgrow war until he is really and finally ready to do so, and no amount of wishful thinking will produce any other result. Until then we somewhat more enlightened types need to keep our heads down when the bullets wiz overhead, and spread the love as best we can!


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Yes. And as a species we now might be close to the point in evolution that God-consciousness is attainable for most, if not all, (normal) individuals. :) Through the ages, (local) wars may generally have implemented a process of natural selection and 'survival of the less aggressive or greedy'.. But today wars only devastate advanced civilization, and our morality and sense of truth. And there is now the very real danger of military conflicts escalating into (global) destruction and death on a scale that doesn’t discriminate between the lives of people in any progressive evolutionary sense..

I think it’s obvious that in this (modern) age we must, as a race, overcome our aggression and greed and envy, otherwise we might destroy nature and civilization and thus reverse human evolution. First, political/economical wars must (somehow) be effectively outlawed world wide. Secondly, poverty (which is the fundamental cause of very dangerous and uncontrollable religious wars and terrorism) must (somehow) be eradicated.. Or vice versa..


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