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ubizmo wrote:
Bart wrote:
So, if we do not even understand what matter/mass is, then who are we to speculate that the Earth cannot have been a tenth of its present mass only 2 billion years ago?.. :)
In that case, who are we indeed to say that the UB's many other statements about mass and matter are free of error? …
We cannot say that TUB is free of error (formally), and we also cannot say it is in error..


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According to TUB, everything, and/or all individual consciousness of everything, has Paradise at its center. All macroscopic galaxies and universes rotate around the Paradise gravitational center, and every microscopic ultimaton has this same Paradise as its (gravitational) nucleus.

How can that be? There is but one possible explanation: Our reality is nothing but a 3 dimensional shadow/projection of an infinitely complex oscillation in 4 spatial dimensions of one singular physical/existential entity or God.

What we call macroscopic matter, is then nothing but an infinitely complex sequence of singular microscopic events, produced by this oscillation. And the oscillating singularity is smaller than the smallest subatomic particle and it simultaneously projects the greatest of material structures.

Ultimately, this implies that all so-called matter is created by one thing or nothing..


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ubizmo wrote:
You can think of it that way if you want, but any Catholic theologian will tell you that the "stain of original sin" is not just a causal ripple effect of bad choices.

I'd agree with you on the latter point, but I'm well aware that from the Catholic standpoint, "dropping this part of the atonement doctrine" is nothing more than defining your own new religion. The sacrifice of the Mass in Catholicism is not optional. If you're going to talk about the compatibility of things, it's best to talk of them as they are, rather than as they would be if you had the opportunity to reform them.

I use the Catholic religion as an example here because it has the advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it) of having well-defined doctrines.


I again repeat that TUB is compatible with the religions that I know. Not the other way round. And as you describe, I agree that the doctrines of the Catholic religion are not compatible with TUB.

The beautiful thing, however, is that TUB has no key doctrines in the sense that earthly religions seem to have. You can follow Jesus even if your doctrines are full of misconceptions. In fact, if it is weren't that way, none of us could follow Jesus! None of us would ever get to Paradise. TUB tells us to come to God as we are. He will transform us instead of us first having to transform ourselves before daring to approach him. When considering the eternal life for me the celestial authorities will not check the doctrines that I hold but instead they will go straight to my soul and see its real intentions.

This is exactly the point why TUB hits me with million volts while none of the religions I know of did!


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quote="ubizmo"]
pertti wrote:
To take a single, but dramatic, example, the Catholic Church claims to be the infallible vehicle of the revelation of Jesus to this world. It refers to this revelation as the "deposit of faith" and claims that it alone possesses and teaches that revelation in its fullest and inerrant form. Like the UB, the Catholic Church claims that other religions, including non-Christian and even pagan ones, contain elements of truth, but only incompletely and with distortion. This isn't just an optional detail about Catholicism. It's the very foundation of what the Church says it's all about. It claims to be the one and only church actually founded and supernaturally protected by Jesus himself. You simply cannot reconcile that claim with what the UB says about itself. If you believe what the Catholic Church teaches about itself, you must reject the UB as fraudulent, demonic, or delusional. If you believe what the UB says about itself, you must reject what the Catholic Church says about itself as utterly misguided. There is compatibility between the two on some issues of spirituality, yes, but there is no compatibility between them on what they fundamentally are.

Yes the Catholic Church does claim to have the fullness of the Christian faith and that it is the Church of Christ and yes it has been around almost 2000 years now more than any other church, with basically the same doctrines. The Bible is the greatest of Catholic documents. However; I don't agree with your "my way or the highway" approach to accepting TUB just because of an apparent rejection of the idea that Christ died for mankind's sins. I find that this idea/doctrine has led many people away from weaker religious practices into a greater contact with Jesus that they would not have had before. Also, it has led many to have faith in God and Jesus's kingdom that would have rejected it before. Remember the Church is operating on a 2000 year old faith that was handed down by the apostles and their followers. Is it perfect? No! because men are not perfect that is who runs the church on earth. Are all the UB followers perfect? Everyone interprets the UB perfectly and all are of the same mind and practice? No. I believe of all the religions I have been exposed to the Catholic faith imbodies the most concepts of the UB...Trinitarian belief, an ascension career after death, resurrection into a spiritual body, eventual return of Jesus, believers alive in the after life, we choose life or destruction after death , contemplative meditative prayer, personal relationship with Jesus, social action for the most poor and sick of the world, bringing all men together under the love of Jesus, bringing the preaching of Jesus to the whole world, developing the inner spiritual person to better the outer person, angels, our body is a temple of the holy spirit (adjuster?), acceptance of extraterestial life as possible because of the creative nature of God, evolution as a possible vehicle of creation, physical and mental purity are taught to enhance the spiritual over the carnal animal instincts we have in us. I could go on and on. Religious beliefs are not cookie cutter and each person has a different way of approaching God. God wants us all unfortunately there are some who don't want God. Those are the people we have a moral duty to educate since we have the knowledge of the UB and the after life potential for mankind. This is a duty irrespective of the religious or non religious title you wear. Peace and God Bless.


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bilboj1 wrote:
ubizmo wrote:
pertti wrote:
To take a single, but dramatic, example, the Catholic Church claims to be the infallible vehicle of the revelation of Jesus to this world.
[clip]
There is compatibility between the two on some issues of spirituality, yes, but there is no compatibility between them on what they fundamentally are.


Just for the record, this is not what I wrote but what ubizmo wrote as a comment to my text.

bilboj1 wrote:
Yes the Catholic Church does claim to have the fullness of the Christian faith and that it is the Church of Christ and yes it has been around almost 2000 years now more than any other church, with basically the same doctrines. The Bible is the greatest of Catholic documents. However; I don't agree with your "my way or the highway" approach to accepting TUB just because of an apparent rejection of the idea that Christ died for mankind's sins. I find that this idea/doctrine has led many people away from weaker religious practices into a greater contact with Jesus that they would not have had before. Also, it has led many to have faith in God and Jesus's kingdom that would have rejected it before. Remember the Church is operating on a 2000 year old faith that was handed down by the apostles and their followers. Is it perfect? No! because men are not perfect that is who runs the church on earth. Are all the UB followers perfect? Everyone interprets the UB perfectly and all are of the same mind and practice? No. I believe of all the religions I have been exposed to the Catholic faith imbodies the most concepts of the UB...Trinitarian belief, an ascension career after death, resurrection into a spiritual body, eventual return of Jesus, believers alive in the after life, we choose life or destruction after death , contemplative meditative prayer, personal relationship with Jesus, social action for the most poor and sick of the world, bringing all men together under the love of Jesus, bringing the preaching of Jesus to the whole world, developing the inner spiritual person to better the outer person, angels, our body is a temple of the holy spirit (adjuster?), acceptance of extraterestial life as possible because of the creative nature of God, evolution as a possible vehicle of creation, physical and mental purity are taught to enhance the spiritual over the carnal animal instincts we have in us. I could go on and on. Religious beliefs are not cookie cutter and each person has a different way of approaching God. God wants us all unfortunately there are some who don't want God. Those are the people we have a moral duty to educate since we have the knowledge of the UB and the after life potential for mankind. This is a duty irrespective of the religious or non religious title you wear. Peace and God Bless.


Again, for the record, I basically agree with what you say. And so does TUB:

(969.5) 88:2.7 In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties. Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round.

(1107.3) 101:2.13 True religion is an insight into reality, the faith-child of the moral consciousness, and not a mere intellectual assent to any body of dogmatic doctrines. True religion consists in the experience that “the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.” Religion consists not in theologic propositions but in spiritual insight and the sublimity of the soul’s trust.


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bilboj1 say:
I could go on and on. Religious beliefs are not cookie cutter and each person has a different way of approaching God. God wants us all unfortunately there are some who don't want God. Those are the people we have a moral duty to educate since we have the knowledge of the UB and the after life potential for mankind. This is a duty irrespective of the religious or non religious title you wear. Peace and God Bless.
____________ ____________________ __________________
I agree in saying that the quality of the person and not belonging to a group that makes the difference.
However I do not think we could ever convince someone who is not already prepared within themselves to this conversion of the Universal Father.
Not even Jesus seems to have succeeded, even knowing the type of personality is not certain even try.
It 'only natural that each of us to devote some time to make converts but I repeat that it is pointless to pretend that everyone will believe.
We can only do we organize small part.

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bilboj1 wrote:
Yes the Catholic Church does claim to have the fullness of the Christian faith and that it is the Church of Christ and yes it has been around almost 2000 years now more than any other church, with basically the same doctrines. The Bible is the greatest of Catholic documents. However; I don't agree with your "my way or the highway" approach to accepting TUB just because of an apparent rejection of the idea that Christ died for mankind's sins.


It's not my view. I'm simply representing the view of the Catholic Church. The atonement doctrine is not the only point of disagreement with the Church, either. It would use Galatians 1:7-9 to reject the UB outright. Of course, the UB believer will reject Galations as one of Paul's distortions, but the Church has an answer to that, and so on. My point is simply that you cannot harmonize the UB and Catholic doctrine.

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Remember the Church is operating on a 2000 year old faith that was handed down by the apostles and their followers. Is it perfect? No! because men are not perfect that is who runs the church on earth.


I agree, but the teaching of the Church about itself is that it is protected against teaching error despite the failings of the men who run it. If you think it is inappropriate to cite the teachings of the Church about itself then you will be very unhappy in the UB community, where UB believers frequently cite the UB's statements about itself as authoritative.

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X ubizmo:

The question of authority of the church I UB, IMO, UB for those who believe it represents the truth in all its parts.
The Church itself does contain many teachings right and true but just as many written by men with the intention of creating real dogmas on which then influence on believers to do. The Church has many dogmas as well as very large and also a liturgy based on the principle of magic. UB does not have any handling of this and tells the facts as they actually performed and not how they think they can interpret.

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I agree, but the teaching of the Church about itself is that it is protected against teaching error despite the failings of the men who run it. If you think it is inappropriate to cite the teachings of the Church about itself then you will be very unhappy in the UB community, where UB believers frequently cite the UB's statements about itself as authoritative.


Thats partly true, but even the more optimistic catholic comes to realize that even if their beloved apostles wrote every word of the book, that they to where somewhat limited in their understandings and that they may not have written out everything that happened in the exact way it happened. The bible talks about many many things that present more questions than answer's and for alot of follower's they are left with just question's about beings like Adam and eve, lucifer, jesus etc. I know from the time I was in a catholic school, there wasn't a universal opinion that the bible was infallible. That comes mostly from priest's and church leader's. For a large number of catholics the bible is just a initial set of questions, that they want answers to because they somehow sense that there is a profound mysterious truth to what they are reading.

The life and teachings of jesus in the u.b is so powerfull though that to know the way jesus lived is as the u.b describes the most important human knowledge that a human can possess, and you know what they say about knowledge. Knowledge is power :). Seasoned reader's of the u.b don't have to act authoratative in any situation because they can lead by unselfish loving service that attracts others to them :), and if the unbeliever proves to be a better social servant than the seasoned reader, that reader should seriously consider if he has made any progress in the kingdom at all. He/She should consider if he/she has obeyed any of the truth that he/she has read.

All this loving-kindness shall be shown the so-called heathen, notwithstanding the unfortunate declaration of the record which intimates that the triumphant Son `shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' The Psalmist exhorted you to `serve the Lord with fear' -- I bid you enter into the exalted privileges of divine sonship by faith; he commands you to rejoice with trembling; I bid you rejoice with assurance. He says, `Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish when his wrath is kindled.' But you who have lived with me well know that anger and wrath are not a part of the establishment of the kingdom of heaven in the hearts of men. But the Psalmist did glimpse the true light when, in finishing this exhortation, he said: `Blessed are they who put their trust in this Son.'"

P1725:4, 155:1.3 Jesus continued to teach the twenty-four, saying: "The heathen are not without excuse when they rage at us. Because their outlook is small and narrow, they are able to concentrate their energies enthusiastically. Their goal is near and more or less visible; wherefore do they strive with valiant and effective execution. You who have professed entrance into the kingdom of heaven are altogether too vacillating and indefinite in your teaching conduct. The heathen strike directly for their objectives; you are guilty of too much chronic yearning. If you desire to enter the kingdom, why do you not take it by spiritual assault even as the heathen take a city they lay siege to? You are hardly worthy of the kingdom when your service consists so largely in an attitude of regretting the past, whining over the present, and vainly hoping for the future. Why do the heathen rage? Because they know not the truth. Why do you languish in futile yearning? Because you obey not the truth. Cease your useless yearning and go forth bravely doing that which concerns the establishment of the kingdom.

P1726:1, 155:1.4 "In all that you do, become not one-sided and overspecialized.The Pharisees who seek our destruction verily think they are doing God's service. They have become so narrowed by tradition that they are blinded by prejudice and hardened by fear. Consider the Greeks, who have a science without religion, while the Jews have a religion without science. And when men become thus misled into accepting a narrow and confused disintegration of truth, their only hope of salvation is to become truth-co-ordinated -- converted.

P1726:2, 155:1.5 "Let me emphatically state this eternal truth: If you, by truth co-ordination, learn to exemplify in your lives this beautiful wholeness of righteousness, your fellow men will then seek after you that they may gain what you have so acquired. The measure wherewith truth seekers are drawn to you represents the measure of your truth endowment, your righteousness. The extent to which you have to go with your message to the people is, in a way, the measure of your failure to live the whole or righteous life, the truth-co-ordinated life."
P1726:3, 155:1.6 And many other things the Master taught his apostles and the evangelists before they bade him good night and sought rest upon their pillows.


1931.4) 178:1.13 When a kingdom believer is called upon to serve the civil government, let him render such service as a temporal citizen of such a government, albeit such a believer should display in his civil service all of the ordinary traits of citizenship as these have been enhanced by the spiritual enlightenment of the ennobling association of the mind of mortal man with the indwelling spirit of the eternal God. If the unbeliever can qualify as a superior civil servant, you should seriously question whether the roots of truth in your heart have not died from the lack of the living waters of combined spiritual communion and social service. The consciousness of sonship with God should quicken the entire life service of every man, woman, and child who has become the possessor of such a mighty stimulus to all the inherent powers of a human personality.

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
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In summary if you read the urantia book and if you are able to love mankind as jesus did, you will be power multiplied to a point where the catholics, jews and hindu's will not be able to help themselves but go after you. You will be a lighthouse of dynamic love wherever you go. There will not be a need to speek authouratively about sonship, you're personality will be the reality of sonship. You will be a living revelation of sonship to those who have spiritual eye's capable of recognizing spiritual fruit.

As charlie sheen say's you will be a WINNING

unselfish loving service + Spirit of truth (power multiplying fulcrum) + knowledge of the way jesus lived his life + partnership with god = Unimaginable possibilitys.

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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unselfish loving service + Spirit of truth (power multiplying fulcrum) + knowledge of the way jesus lived his life + partnership with god = Unimaginable possibilitys.


Well said Boomshuka ! I fully agree with you.

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Yoder777 wrote:
Has anyone mentioned that the Urantia Book apparently suggests that Pentecost happened on the same day as Jesus' ascension, rather than ten days afterward? This would make Pentecost forty days after Passover, a possible error since Pentecost is fifty days after Passover.

Jesus' Ascension and Pentecost, 40 Days or 50 Days?
By
Peter Holley
http://beamsdoorway.bizland.com/urantia/


I have noticed Yoder777's reference (quoted above by him) to Peter Holley's excellent researched article re. this apparently sticky question, and was wondering what Yoder777's take is on this specific article...any thoughts to share, Yodder777?...

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yes.

Rajan C Mathew wrote:
Dear all,

Many of us who are readers of the Urantia Book are convinced about the super human authorship of the FER.

What are your personal points of conviction in favour of this?

Does this re-affirmation make any difference to us ?

I am eager to know.

Love.


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