Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:43 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Switch to mobile style


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Yoder777 wrote:
I don't take the Urantia Book in its entirety to be literal truth. What's more important is the spiritual truth, beyond literal factuality, that the book emphasizes.


Out of curiosity, how do you decide what to take literally and what not to?

For example, do you think the "Mansion Worlds" are really out there in space somewhere, or are they a symbol of...something?

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:22 pm +0000
Posts: 771
In the Urantia Book, does Jesus warn the disciples against interpreting the Scriptures too literally?

_________________
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
Yoder777 wrote:
In the Urantia Book, does Jesus warn the disciples against interpreting the Scriptures too literally?


I don't remember. If he did, should we interpret that literally?

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:40 pm +0000
Posts: 2565
159:4.1 And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus’ pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew Scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: “Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings — the best as I view it — and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?” When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:


159:4.2 Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.


159:4.3 These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.


159:4.4 Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.


159:4.5 Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies — men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.


159:4.6 The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.


159:4.9 But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.


159:4.10 But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.”


159:5.1 At Philadelphia, where James was working, Jesus taught the disciples about the positive nature of the gospel of the kingdom. When, in the course of his remarks, he intimated that some parts of the Scripture were more truth-containing than others and admonished his hearers to feed their souls upon the best of the spiritual food, James interrupted the Master, asking: “Would you be good enough, Master, to suggest to us how we may choose the better passages from the Scriptures for our personal edification?” And Jesus replied: “Yes, James, when you read the Scriptures look for those eternally true and divinely beautiful teachings, such as:


162:2.1 The first afternoon that Jesus taught in the temple, a considerable company sat listening to his words depicting the liberty of the new gospel and the joy of those who believe the good news, when a curious listener interrupted him to ask: “Teacher, how is it you can quote the Scriptures and teach the people so fluently when I am told that you are untaught in the learning of the rabbis?” Jesus replied: “No man has taught me the truths which I declare to you. And this teaching is not mine but His who sent me. If any man really desires to do my Father’s will, he shall certainly know about my teaching, whether it be God’s or whether I speak for myself. He who speaks for himself seeks his own glory, but when I declare the words of the Father, I thereby seek the glory of him who sent me. But before you try to enter into the new light, should you not rather follow the light you already have? Moses gave you the law, yet how many of you honestly seek to fulfill its demands? Moses in this law enjoins you, saying, ‘You shall not kill’; notwithstanding this command some of you seek to kill the Son of Man.”


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:14 am +0000
Posts: 284
Location: India
Thank you Coop, for reproducing those quotes from the UB here. IMHO we should keep reading them-the truths taught by Jesus !

Many of us here are familiar with the history of the UB. But for those not familiar, I suggest the most authentic and matter of fact record available on line :

http://www.freeurantia.org/AHistory.htm

The contents of our book together with its unique history give the much needed intellectual and spiritual nourishment to our starving minds !

God Bless All !

_________________
Rajan C Mathew, India.
Guide Us Father to Live according to Your Plans !
http://rajan-c-mathew.blogspot.in


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:50 pm +0000
Posts: 71
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
In the plan of God the FER is given to man for enlightenment and I also believe it will be the last revelation before Christ returns, (IMHO).
8)

_________________
<Spiritual Man>


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:22 pm +0000
Posts: 771
What is the best evidence for the reliability of the Urantia Book? Another question I have is whether or not a Buddhist can benefit from reading the Urantia Book.

_________________
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:47 pm +0000
Posts: 265
I found my book thru my prayers.
And then it seemed to answer most of my unanswered life questions.
Many things exist even if it cannot be empirically proven; spirituality is not science and never meant to be and vice-versa, so it cannot be used to valuate one another.
I do not know if Dr. Sadler was a liar and neither am i sure what the apostles mathew, luke and john wrote in the new testament are true and are the real truth; all i know is the move my soul to act and lightened up my spirit to new feeling of truth and beauty, and so i believe. i could never be able to believe for ever nor could i to not believe if i solely rely on my own mind to decide things which otherwise are beyond me; but even then, i still keep an open mind.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:09 am +0000
Posts: 722
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Yoder777 asked:
Quote:
What is the best evidence for the reliability of the Urantia Book? Another question I have is whether or not a Buddhist can benefit from reading the Urantia Book.


I believe the best evidence for the reliability of the UB is the transformative influence it creates in the life of a reader. Any person regardless of their religious background or even non religious ones who are seeking for truths and maintaining an open mind can benefit from reading the Urantia Book. Reading the UB can have an immediate benefit to the person who is ready to receive its teachings. Some who are not ready can still benefit from it but it may take longer time. I believe the UB is destined to become the best book of all time on earth. It may take a long time to take root in the minds of men but when it does it will be the vehicle for the restoration of the unadulterated religion of Jesus - the attainment of the actual temporal as well as spiritual brotherhood of men - the kingdom of God on earth.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:14 am +0000
Posts: 284
Location: India
22:4.7 You mortals who read this message may yourselves ascend to Paradise, attain the Trinity embrace, and in remote future ages be attached to the service of the Ancients of Days in one of the seven superuniverses, and sometime be assigned to enlarge the revelation of truth to some evolving inhabited planet, even as I am now functioning on Urantia.

What a confident and reassuring statement from a Mighty Messenger ( a one time mortal from a world similar to our world) who wrote this paper to reveal this hitherto unknown secret to us. When I read this, tears of joy filled my eyes. Joy to know about that unseen God, who cares for me and all those like me who are insignificant as of now. Joy by being assured of the great possibilities ahead by sending one who was like me at some point of time in the past and who had experienced the thrills of advancements in his superuniverse career!

_________________
Rajan C Mathew, India.
Guide Us Father to Live according to Your Plans !
http://rajan-c-mathew.blogspot.in


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:14 am +0000
Posts: 284
Location: India
Let me reiterate my conviction about the UB :

- that it is from an invisible, but a real source.

- that it consolidates much of the knowledge about God and man littered here and there with effortless fill ups in the missing links.

- that the Urantia Book indeed tells the truth.

- that its authors do not wish to reveal everything at this stage- only sufficient for us to assimilate for a few centuries ahead.

- that it is with a divine purpose clearly spelt out.

- that the authority of its super human authorship is enough compulsion for me to believe in God.

_________________
Rajan C Mathew, India.
Guide Us Father to Live according to Your Plans !
http://rajan-c-mathew.blogspot.in


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52 am +0000
Posts: 92
Rajan C Mathew wrote:
Let me reiterate my conviction about the UB :
- that the authority of its super human authorship is enough compulsion for me to believe in God.


Even a better reason to believe it is to find out that it works, i.e. when you start listening to your Thought Adjuster, Spirit of Truth and Holy Spirit, you will get personal experience that it really works. This is much better than any conviction about the origin of TUB.

In fact, I don't care who wrote TUB, whether it was a human or a superhuman. What is important to me is what it says and that it works and it explains many of my personal experiencies, especially many with my Thought Adjuster. This is undeniable evidence (to me).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:29 pm +0000
Posts: 2444
Quote:
What is the best evidence for the reliability of the Urantia Book? Another question I have is whether or not a Buddhist can benefit from reading the Urantia Book.



BUDDHIST? Absolutely. The supreme being is IMO something buddhists have recognized at moments but been unable to describe and the Thought Adjuster.

Evidence, man there is so much someone should really make a good website for all the scientific evidence Ubthenews is just the tip of the ice-berg there is so much evidence.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
boomshuka wrote:
Evidence, man there is so much someone should really make a good website for all the scientific evidence Ubthenews is just the tip of the ice-berg there is so much evidence.


If we're going to be serious about evidence, then we have to make every effort to look at all the evidence, both for and against the superhuman authorship of the UB. That means not changing the standard of evidence as we go. In particular, it means not relaxing standards in cases where the UB seems to get things right, then raising the standard where the UB seems to get things wrong. Unfortunately, I find way too much of this standard-shifting in just about all discussions of the scientific evidence.

For example This Essay by Phil Calabrese is an insightful look at the evidence. I consider Phil a friend, and the last time I spoke with him in person was just before he presented this paper. I like the way he categorizes things, "Pitfall avoided", "Unpopular Positions and Predictions", etc. There is, however, always the temptation to "retro-fit" new discoveries to fit the language of the UB, making its statements look like predictions. It's similar to the case of Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled by Jesus, i.e., it's not always independently clear that the OT passages were prophecies.

For example, Phil quotes the UB saying "When a living cell is injured, it possesses the
ability to elaborate certain chemical substances which are empowered so to stimulate and
activate the neighboring normal cells that they immediately begin the secretion of certain
substances which facilitate healing processes in the wound; and at the same time these
normal and uninjured cells begin to proliferate-- they actually start to work creating new
cells to replace any fellow cells which may have been destroyed by the accident". Note the vagueness of "certain substances", which occurs twice. Phil takes this to be a prediction of recent discoveries about regeneration of hepatocytes. The vagueness of the text prevents us from having a high degree of confidence in any interpretation.

Phil counts the UB's mention of "dark islands of space" as a prediction of the "dark matter" posited by astrophysicists to provide enough gravitational braking power to hold the universe together. Dark matter, however, was first proposed by Zwicky in 1934.

Phil claims that neutrinos weren't actually observed until 1959, but according to Wikipedia this occurred in 1942, in work for which the Nobel Prize was finally awarded in 1995. Since we know that the text of the UB was still being modified in 1942, this cannot count as a prediction.

Instead of a section on "errors", however, Phil has "Instruction in Science and Cosmology Still to be Received by Urantia Scientists". That is, he interprets apparent errors as predictions yet to be fulfilled. For example, the UB does not support the Big Bang theory. Although there are a few dissenters in the scientific community, it has to be conceded that the overwhelming weight of opinion among the best-qualified scientists is in support of the Big Bang. We have to grant, of course, that all scientific claims are open to revision, but this doesn't imply that all are equally dubious. If we are trying to be fair, then, we should say that according to our best current knowledge, the UB is wrong on this point.

Similarly, according to best current knowledge, life on this planet is older than 550 million years; and the mass of the planet 2 billion years ago was not a tenth of its current mass. And the liquidity of water actually is predicted by its known micro-properties, if you include the properties of hydrogen bonds, discovered in 1931 but not widely known until Pauling wrote about them in 1939.

And this is precisely where we always seem to run into trouble. UB readers willingly give the UB every benefit of the doubt if it looks like it's making a successful prediction, but where it appears to be wrong, there is a tendency to emphasize the tentativeness and fallibility of science, so the apparent errors "don't count." This, to my mind, is cultic thinking, and in the end it does not and cannot support the UB. On the contrary, I think it damages the image of the UB.

The Fellowship site has this essay by Dan Massey that some will find disturbing. I only recently found this essay. I met Dan, about ten years before he wrote this. I also knew him from his writings on Urantial, an early UB-related discussion list. I found him to be one of the most brilliant people I knew in the UB movement, and that's saying something, because there are a lot of very bright people in it, including Phil Calabrese and many others. Even in the 1990s, Dan had a mixed reaction to the science content, and thought there were very few passages that could be interpreted as true fulfilled predictions. And he was well aware of the way in which the confirmation bias inclines us to tune out information that undermines our convictions. Between then and 2003, it appears that his confidence was further eroded. As far as I can tell, from searching online, Dan is no longer involved with the UB. He's just one person, of course, but I want to emphasize that he was as familiar with the science material as anyone, and had dedicated much time and energy to the UB.

So, my point is that a fair and objective analysis needs to deal with more than just the predictive successes. For one thing, there is the necessity of confirming that certain things weren't known or at least widely conjectured back when the UB was still being put together. This involves actually consulting the sources of that period. And fairness requires acknowledging when science calls the UB wrong, and not trying to whitewash it.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:16 pm +0000
Posts: 495
pertti wrote:
In fact, I don't care who wrote TUB, whether it was a human or a superhuman. What is important to me is what it says and that it works and it explains many of my personal experiencies, especially many with my Thought Adjuster. This is undeniable evidence (to me).


I know a number of Evangelical Protestants, some orthodox Catholics, at least one Muslim, several Course in Miracle followers, a Kriya Yoga devotee, an Eckankar practitioner (at least, I think he's still one)--all of whom make exactly the same claim about their source material: It works. But these source materials all teach very different, and incompatible, truths about reality. The only reasonable conclusion to draw, as I see it, is that what works is the belief that people have in these materials/teachings, rather than their content. That doesn't show that the sources are all wrong, although they can't all be true. It merely shows that the fact that they work doesn't amount to evidence that they are what they say they are.

I care who wrote the UB because no matter how much I may think that its content "deserves to be true", as some have put it, I can't believe that it is true if it's simply the product of human imagination. I'd love to believe that the UB is what it says it is, but the very fact that I'd love to believe it is in no way a reason to believe it. On the contrary, it's a reason to even more cautious, given the well-established propensity that we all have to see what we want to see.

_________________
Todd


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group