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An open forum for general discussions of a spiritual nature where guests and readers entertain the teachings of The Urantia Book.
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Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:04 am +0000

I love Coast to Coast AM. I subscribe and listen to it every night. Recently there has been a lot of talk about aliens and what they are trying to do here on Earth. Now I know what the Urantia Book says. I am guessing that what we think of as UFO's are really seraphic transports. For anyone who likes UFO and UFO research you have probably heard of Zachariah Stitchen and his books. He translated a bunch of Sumarian tablets that say that we were created by a race of aliens called the Anunaki. I don't really believe his account, but it stands to reason that maybe we ARE being visted by ET's with the acting Planetary Princes approval. Another thing I wonder about are abductions. If they do happen and we are being probed I have to wonder WHY especially when we are told in the UB that once humanity reached a certain point of evolution that they stopped messing with us. Any thoughts as to why or any other information that you have that could shed light or just broaden my viewpoint would be greatly apprecitated. I know that there is a lot that the Celestials who gave us the UB did not tell us, but I think its time for us to stop playing around and kick the UB into high gear. Might I even suggest that they give us an UPDATED version of the UB since we have progressed so far. Anyway thanks for reading my little question/rant and I look foward to responses.

Re: Aliens

Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:29 am +0000

What grand leap of imagination to associate UFO's and Seraphic Transport.

I will fight this fight to the end .. there is no connection between the U.B. and the UFO phenomena.

Can't people just accept that there may be people from another planet that is more advanced than us and happen to find our little planet and thought..cool lets check it out.

If in some future time as we here on Earth advance in our technology are able to visit a planet that happens to be less advance than us would we be seen as Seraphic transports? plz

Big difference from material to spiritual objects.

All Spiritual being are living under a mandate from God to not interfere, they can Aid... but not abduct or any kind of transgression of human evolution or free will.

Whom ever they are that have found us and are seen from time to time in Object that look like Saucer are just as Material as we are.

Give to God what is Gods and to Man what is Mans
Last edited by J. Barry on Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:56 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Aliens

Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:31 am +0000

From what I understand there are very many varieties of life out there, the vast majority are
obediant to the universal laws, but some have been influenced by the rebellion, I think this local area is affected. They probably are going along with Lucifers plan.

Re: Aliens

Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:05 pm +0000

Might I even suggest that they give us an UPDATED version of the UB since we have progressed so far.

I wonder how far we have progressed.

Re: Aliens

Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:22 pm +0000

Korzen wrote:... I think this local area is affected. They probably are going along with Lucifers plan.

I wonder what that plan might be.

Re: Aliens

Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:44 pm +0000

Bart ~ Heres the Plan of Lucy Fur . :x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUi43BCr ... r_embedded

BTW ; Tramp is a Alien ! :-$
with a kool hat .

Re: Aliens

Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:46 pm +0000

LOL Butt-heads...lol

I love it :razz: :)

Re: Aliens

Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:16 pm +0000

Seriously. :) The Urantia Book does not clarify what Lucifer’s personal plan or objective was, except perhaps that he wanted to prove his point that the Universal Father doesn’t exist. But this seems a strange and rather childish motivation for such an advanced and sublime spiritual being. TUB only describes the symptoms of Lucifer’s actions, but not what he perceived to personally gain from it:
(615.1) 54:2.4 In short, what God had given men and angels Lucifer would have taken away from them, that is, the divine privilege of participating in the creation of their own destinies and of the destiny of this local system of inhabited worlds.
But, why?

(616.3) 54:4.4 Most of the liberties which Lucifer sought he already had; others he was to receive in the future. All these precious endowments were lost by giving way to impatience and yielding to a desire to possess what one craves now and to possess it in defiance of all obligation to respect the rights and liberties of all other beings composing the universe of universes. Ethical obligations are innate, divine, and universal.
What were these liberties and endowments which Lucifer "craved to possess now"? How can such an enlightened spiritual being personally crave or desire anything for himself?

One can ask: Why did the revelators bother to explain the Lucifer rebellion at all? Apparently only to assure us that our current trials and tribulations will work out for the good of us, if we are able to "withstand the sophistries of sin":
(619.2) 54:6.5 And there is compensation for these trials, delays, and disappointments which invariably accompany the sin of rebellion. Of the many valuable repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion which might be named, I will only call attention to the enhanced careers of those mortal ascenders, the Jerusem citizens, who, by withstanding the sophistries of sin, placed themselves in line for becoming future Mighty Messengers, fellows of my own order. Every being who stood the test of that evil episode thereby immediately advanced his administrative status and enhanced his spiritual worth.

Lucifer was born (almost) perfect, so he may never have had this opportunity "to advance by standing the test of evil". Perhaps that’s why he started his own experiment with evil and sin. He might even get away with it as a result of divine love and mercy:
(618.4) 54:6.1 Whatever the difficulties evolutionary mortals may encounter in their efforts to understand the Lucifer rebellion, it should be clear to all reflective thinkers that the technique of dealing with the rebels is a vindication of divine love. The loving mercy extended to the rebels does seem to have involved many innocent beings in trials and tribulations, but all these distraught personalities may securely depend upon the all-wise Judges to adjudicate their destinies in mercy as well as justice.
Maybe the revelators do not mention this principle more explicitely recarding the Lucifer rebellion, because we might get the (wrong) impression that evil and sin are actually good..
(619.3) 54:6.6 At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer’s folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.

Re: Aliens

Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:15 pm +0000

Personal gain?

P.604 - §3 The Lucifer manifesto was issued at the annual conclave of Satania on the sea of glass, in the presence of the assembled hosts of Jerusem, on the last day of the year, about two hundred thousand years ago, Urantia time. Satan proclaimed that worship could be accorded the universal forces--physical, intellectual, and spiritual--but that allegiance could be acknowledged only to the actual and present ruler, Lucifer, the "friend of men and angels" and the "God of liberty."

The allegiance to a leader of Lucifer's brilliance in self-importance, one may loose the sight of impartial decision making as a will creature.

The rest is self-explanatory from self-importance and ignoring the obligation and duty to the whole.

P.604 - §4 Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion. One of his chief arguments was that, if self-government was good and right for the Melchizedeks and other groups, it was equally good for all orders of intelligence. He was bold and persistent in the advocacy of the "equality of mind" and "the brotherhood of intelligence." He maintained that all government should be limited to the local planets and their voluntary confederation into the local systems. All other supervision he disallowed. He promised the Planetary Princes that they should rule the worlds as supreme executives. He denounced the location of legislative activities on the constellation headquarters and the conduct of judicial affairs on the universe capital. He contended that all these functions of government should be concentrated on the system capitals and proceeded to set up his own legislative assembly and organized his own tribunals under the jurisdiction of Satan. And he directed that the princes on the apostate worlds do the same.

Re: Aliens

Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:45 pm +0000

Okay Tony. But I still don’t see the significance of the Lucifer rebellion from Lucifer’s point of view. We lowly human creatures can only strive to attain full enlightenment and God-consciousness as our spiritual ideal which (according to the revelation) should transcend any material pleasures in this world of time. Shouldn’t Lucifer have been a God-conscious being long before he started the rebellion, and probably during his entire life? No doubt he exactly knew everything the revelators know. So he should have known better than to rebel against God’s will.. Maybe he craved to be a sovereign ruler so much, that he couldn’t wait another zillion years and simply proclaimed his own sovereignty. But could that really be the motive of such a being? And what’s cool (for an advanced spiritual being) about ruling some local universe, populated by backward creatures, cut of from all constellation and universe spiritual circuits? I just don’t get it..

Anyway, since this thread is about aliens, here’s my 2 cents. If aliens are physically present on earth, they must be just as spiritually backward as we are, in order to invest that much of their time and resources into reaching a material goal (earth). Any overt plan they might have, would have been made known to us. Since that is not the case, they might have a covert plan. And because (as argued) we would be dealing here with backward mortal creatures like ourselves, we should be concerned about that.

Personally, however, I’m far from convinced of the physical possibility of the presence of material alien organisms on earth. It seems highly improbable that material creatures can survive a voyage of thousands of light-years through space in some craft, let alone doing something significant, once they arrive here on earth. The Urantia Book, on the other hand, indicates that spiritual beings may be present on earth all the time. Thus, if so called alien encounters are real, these are most likely of a spiritual nature. Nevertheless, I agree with Korzen that (with the Lucifer rebellion in mind) this is not necessarily a good thing..

All in all, I think we are basically on our own. Whereas material alien organisms most likely do exist, the idea that they are visiting earth seems far from realistic. Spiritual beings might be here, but they are apparently not interfering or making themselves publicly known. And after all, TUB doesn’t teach us that we need to concern ourselves with any form of alien contact, apart from our TA, which can hardly be called alien..

Re: Aliens

Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:20 pm +0000

Lucifer was created in the local universe of Nebadon. I do not think he ever went to Paradise. So he had to accept the knowledge of the Father on faith. Somewhere along, he decided there was no Father. This probably is the starting point of his down fall of his gradient of reason in his mind. "mind is infallible." was one of his contentions.

When one lost the sight of the Father, self-importance can become magnified beyond reasonable mind. Just by holding "there is no God" as truth, one can gratify his self-importance in his mind. External rewards may not be necessary attraction for Lucifer.

Re: Aliens

Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:23 am +0000

tonyMa, you said it for me.

.....it is minute and seemingly insignificantmatter to our mind..."there is no God/or there is no God but only science"... this will be the beginning of our long and difficult spiritual journey.

God's version of perfection and fairness is far beyond our mind to understand, therefore, it would be futile to try to compare or even to measure our standard of understanding and versions against His.
When God require us to live by faith, it is putting us; and also those celestial beings too, in the agony of extreme testings. In this particular situation,Faith can become enemy to the mind of the intelligent and thinking animal like us; for we are required to believe the unseen but know is true.
Ignorant mind would tend to ally themselves with blind faith while the enlightened one with unbelief; and when that happened, self is becoming central and the controller

Re: Aliens

Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:33 am +0000

Lucifer always knew and accepted that Michael of nebadon was his creator-father. From that fact on, it shouldn’t be such a great leap of faith to accept that in turn Michael has his own creator-father, et cetera. Then it’s only logical and consistent to assume that this entire hierarchy of creation ultimately must originate in the first source and Center and the universal Father at the top.

However, Lucifer questioned the existence of the unseen universal Father: the personality of the great first source and Center. He charged that "physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father" (53:3.2).

So far, this reasoning may be understandable. It addresses the key philosophical problem of all the great world religions: the primacy of a personal god as the origin of some impersonal unitary mechanism or first source and Center or effulgence or Brahman, which in turn projects all material and spiritual reality. Why shouldn’t it be the other way round: i.e. a prepersonal, mechanical, fundamental principle inherently produces all reality, including all personality and individual consciousness, without the need for an original and personal god?

The Urantia Book even indicates that in itself such an assertion isn’t sinful: "There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe." But then TUB continues: "By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he [lucifer] had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin." (53:2.5)

TUB only states that this happened, but not how or why Lucifer finally realized his error, turning any further pursuit of his plans into "deliberate and willful sin". It puzzles me that at some point Lucifer knew that he was wrong, but didn’t repent out of pride..? It seems as if he (and apparently many of his advanced spiritual subordinates) discovered absolute Truth, but refused to live with it because of some spiritually backward egotistic emotion. Instead, they continued their sinful activities for 200,000 years..

Spiritual pride may be some higher order emotion, relative to pride in mortal human beings like us. Nevertheless, it sounds hollow and remains unexplained in TUB. I get the same hollow impression from the description in TUB of the crucial final trial of Jesus on Mount Hermon. According to TUB: ".. this 'temptation ', this final trial of human loyalty in the face of the misrepresentations of rebel personalities, had not to do with food, temple pinnacles, or presumptuous acts. It had not to do with the kingdoms of this world but with the sovereignty of a mighty and glorious universe." But instead of describing this spiritual battle in detail, thus giving us some insight in the mind and motives of Lucifer, TUB simply states:
134:8.7 To the many proposals and counterproposals of the emissaries of Lucifer, Jesus only made reply: "May the will of my Paradise Father prevail, and you, my rebellious son, may the Ancients of Days judge you divinely. I am your Creator-father; I can hardly judge you justly, and my mercy you have already spurned. I commit you to the adjudication of the Judges of a greater universe."

134:8.8 To all the Lucifer-suggested compromises and makeshifts, to all such specious proposals about the incarnation bestowal, Jesus only made reply, "The will of my Father in Paradise be done." And when the trying ordeal was finished, the detached guardian seraphim returned to Jesus' side and ministered to him.
I wonder what were these "misrepresentations of rebel personalities", and "the many proposals and counterproposals of the emissaries of Lucifer", and "all the Lucifer-suggested compromises and makeshifts" and "all such specious proposals about the incarnation bestowal"? And how could the single reply of Jesus: "The will of my Father in Paradise be done", have won this battle of mind for him?

I think that the Lucifer rebellion as set forth in TUB is unsatisfactory because it explicitly gives the reader the impression that much more was/is going on than can be described. Yet, the rebellion is presented as the key to understanding our own current spiritual situation, as well as the general relation between free-will, evil and sin..

Re: Aliens

Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:10 pm +0000

I agree completely with the above post, even going so far as wondering what Lucifer's case was against God that caused so many personalites to turn away from Him and instead choose Lucifer. In the dark depths of my mind I have wondered if perhaps all of us will be spiritually brainwashed to serve this higher power. I know in my heart that this is not so, but you know the old saying: The winners are the ones who write history.

Re: Aliens

Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:47 pm +0000

Here is another logical speculation: Michael has a creator father who has a creator father, and the existence of personal beings is an infinite chain of fathers and sons. The First Source and Center is not necessary. Insisting on origin/beginning is a manifestation of finite mind. Also the above speculation is a manifestation of finite projecting onto infinite. I AM is a creature philosophical concession.

Lucifer did not have an infinite mind, so his thinking can only corrupt the mind order equal or lower than his. A being at Lucifer's level experiences four realities: personal, spiritual, mindal, and material. The Urantia Papers indicate there are four Sources and Centers:

First, Second, Third, and Paradise. Lucifer insisted there is no Source and Center for Personality.

As for the religious philosophical debate, it is impossible to attribute Infinite to some finitely graspable origin. I AM presented in the Urantia Papers is probably the best scaffolding associated with Seven Absolutes. From finite perspective, it is pure philosophical speculation whether Origin is personal or impersonal without personal revelation. Without personal experience with the indwelling fragment of the Creator, personal God has to be taken by faith. It has never been revealed to anybody personally that the Origin is impersonal, and anybody claim the Origin is impersonal has to confess honestly that Deity did not reveal such claim to him. Or he can not have any higher personal authority to confirm his claim. It is impossible for him to experience anything spiritual to back up his claim. Or the indwelling Spirit is silent to his perceptions.

We as mortals most experience three realities: personal, mindal, and material. When one actually experiences the indwelling Spirit, he is truly into the realm of spirit reality. At this point, he can no longer deny a personal God. Now he truly experiences faith as personal relation with God.
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