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Here’s another scenario with Umajor V at ~100,000 ly from Earth, and the size of our minor sector being ~100,000 ly. Both Uminor III (Sagittarius A) and Umajor V are obscuring Uversa, at 200,000 ly from Earth.. (Click the attachment to view a larger version.)


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Bart wrote:
Here’s another scenario with Umajor V at ~100,000 ly from Earth, and the size of our minor sector being ~100,000 ly. Both Uminor III (Sagittarius A) and Umajor V are obscuring Uversa, at 200,000 ly from Earth.)


I am sorry but this is wrong again. The amount of matter (10 major sectors comprising 1,000 spiral galaxies in total) you cram into that small space is just staggering. You have major sectors ending about 5,000 light years from Uversa and the ends of all minor sectors eventually getting similarly close to Uversa as they revolve around major sector capitals. The laws of physics rule that out completely. This kind of a close approach would rip the major sectors apart and minor sectors with them.

It is simply impossible to imagine 1,000 spiral galaxies existing in such a small space. Your chart is not founded on any observable phenomena and is also impossible in terms of physics. I can not possibly imagine 100 spiral galaxies of Milky Way's size (100,000 ly) existing within an elliptical space less than 200,000 light years wide. Those galaxies would all gravitationally interact with each other, ripping themselves apart and producing total chaos.

Like these:

Image

Besides, where are those close-by galaxies? We would be seeing them. They would be all over our sky.


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One more thing. Some galaxies may be elliptical. But they still revolve. Meaning, they require identical space as circular galaxies do.

If you have an elliptical galaxy 100,000 ly long and 50,000 ly wide, it requires identical space for revolution as a circular galaxy of 100,000 ly size does.

So your model runs into a major problem. Those elliptical structures must all revolve and sub-revolve. And there is no space there to allow them.

Take Splandon as shown on your chart. It revolves. It turns. And as it does, it would actually engulf Uversa. Uversa would be inside Splandon. This is just impossible.


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I-AM wrote:
I am sorry but this is wrong again. The amount of matter (10 major sectors comprising 1,000 spiral galaxies in total) you cram into that small space is just staggering. You have major sectors ending about 5,000 light years from Uversa and the ends of all minor sectors eventually getting similarly close to Uversa as they revolve around major sector capitals. The laws of physics rule that out completely. This kind of a close approach would rip the major sectors apart and minor sectors with them.

...

Besides, where are those close-by galaxies? We would be seeing them. They would be all over our sky.

First, the chart I provided above is just a geometrical proof that the hierarchical clusters, sizes, relative positions, and distances presented in The Urantia Book are in fact possible. As such, I propose that it is fully in agreement with TUB (with Nebadon currently well out towards the edge of Orvonton). This result in itself, might interest students of TUB cosmology.

Second, the chart may be overly compressed. When it is stretched horizontally, the amount of space available for major and minor sectors increases exponentially, without changing the relative positions and distances of the indicated locations. Actually this is exactly what TUB suggests:
Quote:
15:3.2 From the astronomical position of Urantia, as you look through the cross section of near-by systems to the great Milky Way, you observe that the spheres of Orvonton are traveling in a vast elongated plane, the breadth being far greater than the thickness and the length far greater than the breadth.

Third, TUB indicates that many (spiral) nebulae (what we call galaxies) in the Milky Way galaxy (our superuniverse Orvonton) have indeed suffered much distortion as the result of internal catastrophes and external attraction:
Quote:
15:4.8 The Milky Way galaxy is composed of vast numbers of former spiral and other nebulae, and many still retain their original configuration. But as the result of internal catastrophes and external attraction, many have suffered such distortion and rearrangement as to cause these enormous aggregations to appear as gigantic luminous masses of blazing suns, like the Magellanic Cloud. The globular type of star clusters predominates near the outer margins of Orvonton.

Fourth, Uversa is the administrative headquarters of Orvonton. Although Orvonton’s major sectors encircle Uversa, nowhere in TUB is it stated that Uversa represents a material mass large enough to keep the superuniverse together in accord with the simple laws of gravity and physics of our limited space-time realm, which would rip apart anything in its close vicinity. Instead, TUB tells us that the physical controllers of the superuniverses intelligently apply 30 energy systems to organize the material universes:
Quote:
15:7.11 Uversa is the spiritual and administrative headquarters for approximately one trillion inhabited or inhabitable worlds. The glory, grandeur, and perfection of the Orvonton capital surpass any of the wonders of the time-space creations.

15:8.2 Further regulative functions are performed by the superuniverse power centers and physical controllers, living and semiliving intelligent entities constituted for this express purpose. These power centers and controllers are difficult of understanding; the lower orders are not volitional, they do not possess will, they do not choose, their functions are very intelligent but apparently automatic and inherent in their highly specialized organization. The power centers and physical controllers of the superuniverses assume direction and partial control of the thirty energy systems which comprise the gravita domain. The physical-energy circuits administered by the power centers of Uversa require a little over 968 million years to complete the encirclement of the superuniverse.

Fifth, nowhere is it stated in TUB that major sectors rotate around their own center. A major sector is simply defined by its 100 minor sectors, which are in elliptical orbit around the major sector’s center. Likewise the components of minor sectors are in elliptical orbit around the minor sector’s center. So, these elliptical structures do not need a circular space around them to prevent them from colliding into each other or, as you suggest, "engulf Uversa".

Finally, as to your question "where are all those close-by galaxies (minor sectors)?", they are indeed "all over our sky". We agreed earlier that most of our small scale major sector structures might, as yet, remain hidden by the Milky Way starry system! Only large scale systems may already have been identified:
Quote:
15:3.4 Of the ten major divisions of Orvonton, eight have been roughly identified by Urantian astronomers. The other two are difficult of separate recognition because you are obliged to view these phenomena from the inside. If you could look upon the superuniverse of Orvonton from a position far distant in space, you would immediately recognize the ten major sectors of the seventh galaxy.

41.3.10 In one group of variable stars the period of light fluctuation is directly dependent on luminosity, and knowledge of this fact enables astronomers to utilize such suns as universe lighthouses or accurate measuring points for the further exploration of distant star clusters. By this technique it is possible to measure stellar distances most precisely up to more than one million light-years. Better methods of space measurement and improved telescopic technique will sometime more fully disclose the ten grand divisions of the superuniverse of Orvonton; you will at least recognize eight of these immense sectors as enormous and fairly symmetrical star clusters.


Thus, I do not see any problems with my model that have not been addressed and explained by the revelators. Whether or not you accept it, seems to be a matter of acknowledging that our universe is shaped by much more than our simple local laws of gravity, as elaborately set forth in TUB.


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Bart wrote:
Fifth, nowhere is it stated in TUB that major sectors rotate around their own center. A major sector is simply defined by its 100 minor sectors, which are in elliptical orbit around the major sector’s center. Likewise the components of minor sectors are in elliptical orbit around the minor sector’s center. So, these elliptical structures do not need a circular space around them to prevent them from colliding into each other or, as you suggest, "engulf Uversa".


Agreed. Good point.

Still, you have our Earth passing way too close to Umajor V and Uversa.

And your system envisages Splandon being approximately 200,000 ly wide and approximately 5 million ly long (to accomodate 2x50 spiral galaxies basically travelling in two rows).

It just does not sound right to me. We are not seeing 100 spiral galaxies in two rows, touching each other with their ends. It is also gravitationally impossible. They would be colliding with each other.

But you have a valid point. It is possible on paper to cram everything within 200,000 ly (using an extreme ellipse 25x longer than wider).


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Let me suggest that our formal scientific concept of gravity is incomplete.

As I mentioned earlier, apart from multiple nested rotations (15:3.7), another issue adding to our "confusion" might be the existence of layers upon layers of superimposed structures:
Quote:
15:3.9 The local universes are in closer proximity as they approach Havona; the circuits are greater in number, and there is increased superimposition, layer upon layer. But farther out from the eternal center there are fewer and fewer systems, layers, circuits, and universes.
If our (super)universe has a layered organization, then different structures, divisions and sectors may overlap in muliple superimposed layers.

The existence of such layers implies that gravity within a layer is (much) stronger than gravity between layers. The Urantia Book seems to suggest this here:
Quote:
11:8.9 Paradise is the absolute source and the eternal focal point of all energy-matter in the universe of universes. The Unqualified Absolute is the revealer, regulator, and repository of that which has Paradise as its source and origin. The universal presence of the Unqualified Absolute seems to be equivalent to the concept of a potential infinity of gravity extension, an elastic tension of Paradise presence. This concept aids us in grasping the fact that everything is drawn inward towards Paradise. The illustration is crude but nonetheless helpful. It also explains why gravity always acts preferentially in the plane perpendicular to the mass, a phenomenon indicative of the differential dimensions of Paradise and the surrounding creations.
Apparently, energy-mass has a direction, perpendicular to which gravity acts. Now, if all mass has the same direction, perpendicular to the overall plane of creation, this would strongly promote the formation of gravitationally independent material layers..


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Allow me to elaborate on a revolutionary new theory of the cosmic process that create(d) our universe, which is rapidly gaining broad scientific support and momentum, and which seems to be in full compliance with TUB’s notion of the dominance in cosmic structure formation of (non-linear) absolutely controlled (global and local) force systems or absolute gravity, over our simple, linear (physical) local gravity.

This new hypothesis suggests that electromagnetic forces, which may be up to 40 times stronger than matter-gravity forces, shape(d) our universe. It opposes the big bang theory; the mathematical model of Einstein and Friedman which completely ignores electricity’s dominant role in the universe. It seems that a deeply rooted conservatism in the scientific community is all that stands in the way of this new paradigm of physical reality.

The basic idea is that since the known total mass in the universe consists for almost 100% of plasma (ionized gas) - which is a very efficient electrical conductor - electrical forces resulting from plasma rotating in a (auto-generated) perpendicular magnetic field, may account for nearly all structural phenomena in the universe, most notably: a fractal geometrical organization of spiral structures within spiral structures, et cetera; all roughly within the equatorial plane perpendicular to an overall (infinite) toroidal magnetic field.

Below are some quotes and links to informative websites..

Quote:
In physics and chemistry, plasma is a state of matter similar to gas in which a certain portion of the particles are ionized. The basic premise is that heating a gas dissociates its molecular bonds, rendering it into its constituent atoms. Further heating leads to ionization (a loss of electrons), turning it into a plasma: containing charged particles, positive ions and negative electrons.

Plasmas are by far the most common phase of matter in the universe, both by mass and by volume. All the stars are made of plasma, and even the space between the stars is filled with a plasma, albeit a very sparse one. In our solar system, the planet Jupiter accounts for most of the non-plasma, only about 0.1% of the mass and 10−15% of the volume within the orbit of Pluto. Very small grains within a gaseous plasma will also pick up a net negative charge, so that they in turn may act like very heavy negative ion components of the plasma in so called dusty plasmas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)


Quote:
The visible universe is 99.999% plasma. So quite simply, if you don't know how cosmic plasmas behave, you don't know the Universe. And astrophysical plasmas may behave differently to terrestrial plasmas. The Sun's mass makes up over 99.998% of the Solar System, and since it is nearly all in the plasma state, over 99.98% of the mass of the Solar System is in the plasma state. The Earth's ionosphere is plasma.

All cosmic plasma carries a magnetic field and electric currents. Even plasmas that are less than 1% ionized, may behave as a plasma, as do dusty plasmas (i.e. dust grains can be the dominant current carrier).

A plasma, is a gaseous substance consisting of free charged particle such as electrons, protons and other ions, that respond very strongly to electromagnetic fields. The free charges of cosmic plasma make it highly electrically conductive (better than metals) and carry electric currents of trillions of amps, and generate magnetic fields that may cause the plasma to constrict (or pinch) into filaments, generate particle beams, emit a wide range of radiation (radio waves, light, microwave, x-ray, gamma and synchrotron radiation), and form cellular regions of plasma with similar characteristics (eg. magnetosphere, interplanetary medium).

Just as electric currents generate magnetic fields described by Ampere's law, changing magnetic fields in a plasma generate electric currents that are described by Faraday's law. The characteristics of the electric current and magnetic field depend on the characteristics and nature of the plasma.

Electric currents in plasmas produce magnetic fields which in turn produce electric currents. They are sometimes described as self-generated electric and magnetic fields, and Birkeland currents, and field aligned currents.

Rotating plasma in a magnetic field generates electric currents because it behaves as a unipolar generator, also known as a Faraday disk, or magnetic dynamo.

Image below: a computer simulation of two interacting Birkeland currents with plasma clouds trapped in parallel magnetic filaments, simulates evolving galaxy formations, without the need for dark matter and black holes!

Image

http://www.plasma-universe.com/Plasma-Universe.com


Quote:
«The universe consists of a series of spiral bodies of diminishing size, each made in turn by plasma ejection and moulded by a spatial Coriolis effect: a rotating fractal universe.»
http://www.fractaluniverse.org/v2/

See also the ebook, Electro-Fractal Universe, by Colin Hill:
http://www.fractaluniverse.eclipse.co.uk/ElectroFractalUniverseWebVersion.pdf


Quote:
Image

Astronomers Report Unprecedented Double Helix Nebula Near Center of the Milky Way

Astronomers report an unprecedented elongated double helix nebula near the center of our Milky Way galaxy, using observations from NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope. The part of the nebula the astronomers observed stretches 80 light years in length. The research is published March 16 in the journal Nature.

"We see two intertwining strands wrapped around each other as in a DNA molecule," said Mark Morris, a UCLA professor of physics and astronomy, and lead author. "Nobody has ever seen anything like that before in the cosmic realm. Most nebulae are either spiral galaxies full of stars or formless amorphous conglomerations of dust and gas — space weather. What we see indicates a high degree of order."

The double helix nebula is approximately 300 light years from the enormous black hole at the center of the Milky Way. (The Earth is more than 25,000 light years from the black hole at the galactic center.)

The Spitzer Space Telescope, an infrared telescope, is imaging the sky at unprecedented sensitivity and resolution; Spitzer's sensitivity and spatial resolution were required to see the double helix nebula clearly.

"We know the galactic center has a strong magnetic field that is highly ordered and that the magnetic field lines are oriented perpendicular to the plane of the galaxy," Morris said. "If you take these magnetic field lines and twist them at their base, that sends what is called a torsional wave up the magnetic field lines.

"You can regard these magnetic field lines as akin to a taut rubber band," Morris added. "If you twist one end, the twist will travel up the rubber band."

http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Astronomers-Report-Unprecedented-6903.aspx?RelNum=6903

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11:8.9 Paradise is the absolute source and the eternal focal point of all energy-matter in the universe of universes. The Unqualified Absolute is the revealer, regulator, and repository of that which has Paradise as its source and origin. The universal presence of the Unqualified Absolute seems to be equivalent to the concept of a potential infinity of gravity extension, an elastic tension of Paradise presence. This concept aids us in grasping the fact that everything is drawn inward towards Paradise. The illustration is crude but nonetheless helpful. It also explains why gravity always acts preferentially in the plane perpendicular to the mass, a phenomenon indicative of the differential dimensions of Paradise and the surrounding creations.


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Just saw this image and could not help it:

Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... pitzer.jpg

A composite image (visible, infrared and X-ray) of a nearby galaxy called Messier 82 (12 million ly).

And here is another one:

Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... LABOCA.jpg

A sub-milimeter image of Centaurus A, a nearby galaxy (10-16 million ly).

The same pattern. Active galactic nucleus spewing out energy and matter used to form a galactic disc.

You tell me those are not Splandon's two minor sectors in the making... :lol:

X-ray view of the jet created by Centaurus A's power center of the third order:

Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... C_5128.jpg

And once again Messier 82, this time in visible spectrum:

Image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ge_web.jpg

The pattern is definitely there.


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I-AM wrote:
… The pattern is definitely there.
Agreed.. But tell me, how exactly do you propose galactic disks are formed as flat structures? I don’t see how matter-gravity alone can do it..


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Bart wrote:
I-AM wrote:
… The pattern is definitely there.


Agreed.. But tell me, how exactly do you propose galactic disks are formed as flat structures? I don’t see how matter-gravity alone can do it..


We do not have the science yet. Those power centers at the galaxy centers are places where higher dimensional energy coming from major sector capitals gets further downstepped and enters our 5D, 4D and 3D reality in ways we can't even begin to grasp. The ordinary energy and matter is literally manufactured there seemingly out of nowhere.

I am sure there are laws governing these processes. But we do not have formulas describing them. This part of higher dimensional physics remains terra incognita. But the fact is that the String Theory envisaging 11+1 dimensions is pretty close and when fine-tuned, it has been said to provide satisfactory results.


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I-AM wrote:
We do not have the science yet. …
Agreed.. But I don’t see string theory coming up with a unified quantum gravitational field theory any time soon; a gravitational string theory (if it exists at all) is still in its very, very early infancy. And when it eventually does, I suspect it will be nothing but an unwieldy mathematical model in 5 or 11+ (compacted) dimensions, that happens to fit (some subset of) empirical data, thus only indicating that everything is one unified whole, without relating in any way to the actual mechanism(s) that produce(s) our universe.

Instead of trying to fit physical reality in a mathematical model that may be more complex than reality itself, science should be looking for simple explanations that provide fundamental insight. As such, I think this new theory proposing an electro-fractal universe (see my earlier post) is much more promising. The resemblance of certain microscopic atomic shapes (see e.g. the image below) to macroscopic galaxies, hints that atoms are tiny members of a self-similar (fractal) hierarchy of spiral structures within spiral structures..

Image

And complex fractal structures (such as e.g. the Mandelbrot Set) can be produced by iterating just a single mathematical formula. Could it all be that simple? I think so.. :)



Last edited by Bart on Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:22 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I don't know what kind of a formula describes the creation of a spiral galaxy, but one thing I am sure of. It contains many, very many variable parameters Master Force Organisers are able to toy with.

There are so many spiral galaxies and they all look quite differently.

One formula, very different results:

NGC 3521 (35 million ly)
Image

NGC1300 (61 million ly)

Image


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I-AM wrote:
One formula, very different results …
Different but similar; resembling a fractal geometrical structure! In fact, it seems that the universe is not homogeneous and isotropic (or smoothly distributed) at large scales, as would be expected in a standard Big Bang cosmology. Instead, the distribution of matter and galaxies appears to display an overall fractal geometry (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_cosmology).

Since complex fractal structures can be produced by a single formula or self-contained system or process, an overall fractal distribution of galaxies may indicate that a single unified force or process underlies our physical reality and indeed the entire cosmos. It can then be argued that the universe possesses a complex implicate order, which might be largely hidden from our conscious perception, but which is discernable as: hierarchical self-similar organization everywhere in our universe (perhaps most notably in biological structures), or as the peculiar gravitational motion of galaxies, or e.g. the phenomenon of quantum entanglement.

I think the evolution in a state-space of certain so called deterministic chaotic recurrent systems in physics and mathematics, can be seen as a metaphor or model of this situation. The fundamental unpredictability of the microscopic behaviour of a (singular) chaotic oscillation could be related to quantum uncertainty, while the overall (long term) macroscopic behaviour of the system is invariably dictated by a so called strange attractor, which is inherent to the system, and which appears as evolving fractal geometrical structure within (low-dimensional) so called phase-projections of the system (the proverbial order in deterministic chaos). This complex attractor of the system may then represent what TUB calls absolute gravity.

Anyway, the point is that if a high (infinite) degree of fractal order exists at all geometrical scales in the cosmos, it could account for a locally much more closely packed organisation of galaxies within hierarchical (minor and major) sectors of our superuniverse than is predicted by a Big Bang theory and matter-gravity alone, and which is clearly suggested by The Urantia Book.. :)


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We must remember that TUB had no mandate to reveal any new science, so they had to force the true concept into a mold that could be understood in the 1930's, hence they stayed a bit vague but implied that the Milky Way Galaxy was the super universe of Orvonton. Just because it was something the people of the time could easily visualize and understand. They never said this explicitly, just by implication. But now that we are into the 21st century and have a better grasp of things, what with String Theory etc. my opinion on this question is as follows:
I think that the entire observable universe, our 4 dimensional M-brane (in string theory or M-Theory terms) IS the local universe of Nebadon. This makes the scale almost infinitely bigger, but it makes more sense to identify this 4D M-brane with the consort of Michael. The other local universes that compose our super universe also have 4D M-branes (Daughters of the Infinite spirit) and create a living structure in the 10+ dimesions needed by string theory. But all of these structures exist in space and time dimensions of some type, and the central universe of Havana exists outside space and time, and thus exists "outside" the 10+ dimesions containing all of these M-branes, super universes, etc.
Just my two cents,
Valnar


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Valnar wrote:
I think that the entire observable universe, our 4 dimensional M-brane (in string theory or M-Theory terms) IS the local universe of Nebadon.
According to The Urantia Book, the "milky way starry system" represents our superuniverse Orvonton. The milky way (obviously) is a part of our observable universe. Thus, the observable universe cannot be/represent (only) our local universe Nebadon..


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