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 Post subject: Milky Way
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Mr. Shakita wrote:
Now, there is a fellow here by the screen name I-am that has put a lot of thought into your question. I think that he believes that the Milky Way galaxy is a minor sector of the superuniverse of Orvonton.


Correct. That is my current belief. Can I prove it? No.

Milky Way = Ensa

Black Hole at the center of our galaxy = Uminor the third

Island of Paradise = Great Attractor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_attractor)


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I-AM wrote:
Correct. That is my current belief. Can I prove it? No. ..
Hi I-AM. :) I don’t see the point of trying to establish the exact relative positions of each specific space body or architectural sphere mentioned and described in The Urantia Book. In my opinion, the basic point of TUB’s cosmology is that the Grand Universe has an overall self-similar (fractal) organization or structure (material universes exist within material universes, within material universes, ad infinitum..).

For example, take a look from above at (just) our Milky Way galaxy:

Image
Click here to see a larger image, click on the larger image to see an even larger image.

It’s obvious that spiral structures exist within spiral structures, et cetera.. At any observed geometrical scale our galaxy looks the same. That’s what’s meant by a fractal geometry.

Without (again) going into mathematical chaos theory (which btw may adequately explain this remarkable organizational principle of our finite/empirical/experiential/projected/material/physical reality), I try to see the overall/bigger picture presented in TUB, which is Absolute Unity. Our self-similar physical universe as it appears to us, is just a finite/incomplete/shadowy projection (around the circle of eternity) of ONE underlying infinite/complete and Absolute organizing mechanism, or formula, or law, or principle, or God..

I hope this helps. :)


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Bart wrote:
I don’t see the point of trying to establish the exact relative positions of each specific space body or architectural sphere mentioned and described in The Urantia Book.


Why not? Discovering things is fun.

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For example, take a look from above at (just) our Milky Way galaxy:


I see approximately 100 local universes.

Check it up in the book. The revelators say that for them it is very easy to discern minor sectors while at the same time it is quite difficult to establish boundaries between individual local universes. (Somebody find out the exact quote from the book, please.)

Of course, because minor sectors are galaxies and local universes are just portions of galaxies, hard to separate from each other.

Image

My current belief is based on how many subrevolutions there exist.

We revolve around sun, sun revolves around the former center of Andronover, former center of Andronover revolves around Nebadon's gravity center, Nebadon revolves around Uminor the third. At this point there is simply not enough space in our Milky Way galaxy to accomodate two more revolutions (around the center of our major sector and around Uversa).

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I hope this helps. :)


Not really... :lol:


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I-AM wrote:
Why not? Discovering things is fun.
Okay I-AM, discovering things is fun. :) But everything is constantly moving (rotating/revolving/spiralling/whirling) around the (gravitational) center of Orvonton, our super-universe, which itself rotates around Paradise/Havona. And according to The Urantia Book (15:3.7), within this overall super-rotation, 10 sub-rotations exist which identify the 10 major sections of our super universe. Within each major section 10 sub-rotations exist which identify 10 minor sections. Within our particular minor section, our local star cloud (Nebadon) rotates around the Sagittarius center of our minor sector. Within Nebadon, our particular stellar cluster or nebula (Andronover), rotates around the center of Nebadon. Finally, within Andronover, our particular solar system rotates around the center of Andronover and our particular planet rotates around our sun.

So, we are physically part of 7 (nested) rotations (including the Paradise encircling). Why wouldn’t that be possible? Let me suggest that we look at the stars very closely for the next few thousand years, and all may become apparent. :)

I-AM wrote:
The revelators say that for them it is very easy to discern minor sectors while at the same time it is quite difficult to establish boundaries between individual local universes. (Somebody find out the exact quote from the book, please.)
Quote:
41.0.2 While the administrative organization of the grand universe discloses a clear-cut division between the governments of the central, super-, and local universes, and while these divisions are astronomically paralleled in the space separation of Havona and the seven superuniverses, no such clear lines of physical demarcation set off the local creations. Even the major and minor sectors of Orvonton are (to us) clearly distinguishable, but it is not so easy to identify the physical boundaries of the local universes. This is because these local creations are administratively organized in accordance with certain creative principles governing the segmentation of the total energy charge of a superuniverse, whereas their physical components, the spheres of space — suns, dark islands, planets, etc. — take origin primarily from nebulae, and these make their astronomical appearance in accordance with certain precreative (transcendental) plans of the Architects of the Master Universe.


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Bart wrote:
And according to The Urantia Book (15:3.7), within this overall super-rotation, 10 sub-rotations exist which identify the 10 major sections of our super universe.


It could be just one or many subrotations. Depending how major sectors are arranged in space. They could be following the same orbit around Uversa. Like ten Earths on the same orbit, just separated by space. But they could also follow different orbits.

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Within each major section 10 sub-rotations exist which identify 10 minor sections.


Again, that could be just one subrevolution. 100 minor sectors follow the same path, they are just arranged in space. Or, they could follow different orbits and that would give us several varying subrotations.

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Within our particular minor section, our local star cloud (Nebadon) rotates around the Sagittarius center of our minor sector. Within Nebadon, our particular stellar cluster or nebula (Andronover), rotates around the center of Nebadon. Finally, within Andronover, our particular solar system rotates around the center of Andronover and our particular planet rotates around our sun.


That is correct.

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So, we are physically part of 7 (nested) rotations (including the Paradise encircling). Why wouldn’t that be possible?


Sorry but who said it was not possible? I was just saying that it is not possible within our galaxy.

Meaning that Milky Way (Ensa - our minor sector) revolves together with other approx. 100 spiral galaxies around Umajor the fifth, Splandon's capital.

And this galactic cluster then revolves around Uversa, which is probably M87, the largest nearby elliptical galaxy in Virgo supercluster.

Thanks for finding that exact quote from the book.

This is a typical image showing a galactic cluster:

Image

I believe, we are looking at a major sector, consisting of approx. 100 minor sectors (spiral galaxies).

And this is M87 (largest galaxy in Virgo supercluster), a hot candidate for Uversa:

Image


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I-AM wrote:
It could be just one or many subrotations. Depending how major sectors are arranged in space. They could be following the same orbit around Uversa. Like ten Earths on the same orbit, just separated by space. But they could also follow different orbits.
The Urantia Book states that the 7 super universes revolve around Paradise in orderly procession within the horizontal plane of creation or pervaded space (11.7.7). So different superuniverses are not identified by different orbits around Havona but only by the fact that each superuniverse contains approximately 10 major sectors revolving around the superuniverse center. In turn each major sector is distinguished by the fact that it contains 100 minor sectors revolving around the center of their major sector, et cetera. It seems unlikely that major sectors and minor sectors would not revolve in orderly procession around their respective center of gravity within the same overall plane of creation, for they would frequently collide, which may contradict the statement of the revelators that (for them) major and minor sectors are easily detectable.

Of course, at smaller scales, constellations, local systems and planets do have different orbits which are no longer in the same (horizontal) plane and they do collide, which could make them more difficult to detect and distinguish. However, my guess is that ultimately the relative motion of such subsystems will evolve into stable processional orbits around their local gravity center, similar to the orderly large scale revolutions of minor and major sectors and the 7 superuniverses. But that’s pure speculation.

I-AM wrote:
Sorry but who said it was not possible? I was just saying that it is not possible within our galaxy.

Meaning that Milky Way (Ensa - our minor sector) revolves together with other approx. 100 spiral galaxies around Umajor the fifth, Splandon's capital.

And this galactic cluster then revolves around Uversa, which is probably M87, the largest nearby elliptical galaxy in Virgo supercluster.
Okay, agreed. :)

I-AM wrote:
I believe, we are looking at a major sector, consisting of approx. 100 minor sectors (spiral galaxies).

And this is M87 (largest galaxy in Virgo supercluster), a hot candidate for Uversa
Actually The Urantia Book states that the vast milky way starry system (not to be confused with our Milky Way galaxy or minor sector or Ensa) represents the central nucleus of our superuniverse:
Quote:
15.3.1 3. THE SUPERUNIVERSE OF ORVONTON Practically all of the starry realms visible to the naked eye on Urantia belong to the seventh section of the grand universe, the superuniverse of Orvonton. The vast milky way starry system represents the central nucleus of Orvonton, being largely beyond the borders of your local universe. This great aggregation of suns, dark islands of space, double stars, globular clusters, star clouds, spiral and other nebulae, together with myriads of individual planets, forms a watchlike, elongated-circular grouping of about one seventh of the inhabited evolutionary universes.
M87 may then be Umajor the fifth (the center of our major sector).. According to Wikipedia, this supergiant elliptical galaxy is located near the center of the Virgo Cluster. This cluster forms the core of the larger Virgo Supercluster, of which the Milky Way galaxy, is an outlying member. In terms of mass, Messier 87 is a dominant member of the cluster, and hence appears to be moving very little relative to the cluster as a whole (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_87).


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Bart wrote:
It seems unlikely that major sectors and minor sectors would not revolve in orderly procession around their respective center of gravity within the same overall plane of creation, for they would frequently collide, which may contradict the statement of the revelators that (for them) major and minor sectors are easily detectable.


We are not seeing it, are we. Show me 100 galaxies nicely aligned within the same plane, orderly revolving around a major sector capital (large elliptical galaxy).

Instead, we see nests. So it is my present opinion that major sectors look like atoms. The giant eliptical galaxy sits in the middle and minor sectors (spiral galaxies) revolve around it in multiple layers (like electrons do).

Something like this:

Image

Now, there is an order in how electrons move, meaning all those 100 galaxies are nicely controlled in their orbits in a way preventing collision.

It would take too much space to have 100 galaxies put on a single orbit. That is my guess.

Quote:
15.3.1 3. THE SUPERUNIVERSE OF ORVONTON Practically all of the starry realms visible to the naked eye on Urantia belong to the seventh section of the grand universe, the superuniverse of Orvonton. The vast milky way starry system represents the central nucleus of Orvonton, being largely beyond the borders of your local universe.


Define "vast milky way starry system". I have no idea what it is.


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I-AM wrote:
Define "vast milky way starry system". I have no idea what it is.
Well I’m not an astronomer, but could it be that The Urantia Book indicates that what we call the Galactic Center is actually our Superuniverse Center? (There is a quote in TUB saying that our long distance observations are very much distorted. I'll look it up if you want.)
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15.3.2 From the astronomical position of Urantia, as you look through the cross section of near-by systems to the great milky way, you observe that the spheres of Orvonton are traveling in a vast elongated plane, the breadth being far greater than the thickness and the length far greater than the breadth.

15.3.3 Observation of the so-called milky way discloses the comparative increase in Orvonton stellar density when the heavens are viewed in one direction, while on either side the density diminishes; the number of stars and other spheres decreases away from the chief plane of our material superuniverse. When the angle of observation is propitious, gazing through the main body of this realm of maximum density, you are looking toward the residential universe and the center of all things.

Image

The revelators also describe Orvonton here as a vast elongated plane, the breadth being far greater than the thickness and the length far greater than the breadth. The vast milky way as we observe it, may be the dense cross-section of Orvonton, seen from our position within the superuniversal plane itself. And from our current location, this central nucleus of Orvonton may obscure Havona.

If TUB is correct, then your atom-like model couldn’t work. I agree that it would be more consistent with microsocopic (sub-)atomic organization in terms of an overall fractal (self-similar) geometry of our material reality. But I think TUB is quite clear about our superuniverse (and in fact the entire horizontal plane of creation or pervaded space) being a more or less flat structure, just like galaxies are more or less flat structures..


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 Post subject: Re: Milky Way
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The latest news release from Keck...da.................... :( oh how I want to do show and tell.. :wink:

http://keckobservatory.org/news/discove ... _universe/

_________________
A fellow Agondonter...


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 Post subject: Re: Milky Way
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Thanks Tootsie :)

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Kamuela, HI Dec. 1, 2010 - Astronomers have discovered that small, dim stars known as red dwarfs are much more prolific than previously thought—so much so that the total number of stars in the universe is likely three times bigger than realized.


The team discovered that there are about 20 times more red dwarfs in elliptical galaxies than in the Milky Way, said Charlie Conroy of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, who was also involved in the research.

(http://keckobservatory.org/news/discovery_triples_total_number_of_stars_in_universe)

This new finding addresses 2 important issues. First, it may eliminate the need for so called dark-matter in astrophysical theories, which is a good thing. Second, it strongly indicates that the so called Milky Way is not our galaxy because of its vastly different composition, containing 20 times less red dwarfs than (other) galaxies. Instead the Milky Way might be our superuniverse, which seems to be what The Urantia Book is saying!


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Thanks for the link, Tootsie...I actually received this story from more that one person. I posted it on Truthbook's blog page HERE:

http://www.truthbook.com/blogs/index.cfm?categoryID=1032

I just love it when science discovers these little gems of knowledge, so that we can be even more sure of our revelation...! I am sure that in the future, we'll see even more of these cases of modern science catching up with what we already know.

You are one lucky lady to be so close to the action...

MaryJo


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Bart wrote:
Second, it strongly indicates that the so called Milky Way is not our galaxy because of its vastly different composition, containing 20 times less red dwarfs than (other) galaxies. Instead the Milky Way might be our superuniverse, which seems to be what The Urantia Book is saying!


So you are basically saying that Milky Way is not a spiral galaxy but rather some kind of a special supergalaxy, looking different than all other galaxies we are observing in space. Kind of a conglomerate.

With all due respect, it remains my opinion that we are living in a standard spiral galaxy, perfectly comparable to all other spiral galaxies. That is what we are in fact seeing:

Image


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I-AM wrote:
So you are basically saying that Milky Way is not a spiral galaxy but rather some kind of a special supergalaxy, looking different than all other galaxies we are observing in space. Kind of a conglomerate.
Well, not exactly. I am saying (as is The Urantia Book) that the vast Milky Way starry system represents our superuniverse (Orvonton). As such it looks different from galaxies, which seems to be supported by this recent Keck observation that there are about 20 times more red dwarfs in elliptical galaxies than in the Milky Way.
I-AM wrote:
With all due respect, it remains my opinion that we are living in a standard spiral galaxy, perfectly comparable to all other spiral galaxies. That is what we are in fact seeing:

Image
I agree that we are probably living in a standard spiral galaxy, but I don’t think that’s all we are looking at. Our galaxy as well as our superuniverse and the overall master universe, revolve around Havona within the same plane of creation. Now, suppose that from our current position in this plane, our galactic center as well as our superuniverse center (Uversa) and Paradise/Havona are more or less in line, such that our galactic center obscures Uversa as well as Havona, all within the area of the sky called Sagittarius. That would be compatible with what we see. And we don’t see other superuniverses because the master universe (like our superuniverse) is not a circle (as in the picture below) but an elongated ellipse, and we currently are in one of the extreme outer region of this ellipse..

Image

So, I think we are looking at a superimposition of the cross-section of our galaxy and the cross-section of our superuniverse and the central universe itself, all in the same plane, with their respective centers all superimposed in Sagittarius. Thus, basically it can be said that the so called Milky Way represents our superuniverse Orvonton..


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2 problems:

First: There is no space within our galaxy for two more subrevolutions (minor sector around major sector and major sector around Uversa). Take a standard spiral galaxy and show me 10 major sectors in it, each with 100 minor sectors revolving around them. It is just not there!

Second: Show me two neighboring galaxies that would be positioned in the same plane our Milky Way is in. In your scenario we should be seeing these neighboring galaxies as edge-on, since they must be perfectly aligned. (And we would see them because they would be positioned well away from Sagittarius.)

Something like this:

Image

Problem is, you can't divide a spiral galaxy into 10 sectors and there are no two nearby edge-on galaxies revolving within the same plane.

Here is an ultraviolet view of Andromeda. What do I see? 100 local universes. Those are that brighter areas in the spiral arms separated by relative void. About 100 of them. Plus, closer to the galactic center, more dense those local universes are. (This is mentioned in the book, by the way. Look up the exact quote, if you wish.)

Image

That is why they say it is easy to spot a minor sector. That is why they say it is quite difficult to see the boundaries of local universes. It can not be done. You have to go there and check which Mother Spirit is present near a given star to be sure which local universe you are actually in. Nebadon is where Nebadonia is present. Her presence indicates the boundaries of Nebadon. (This again is in the book. You may quote it here.)


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I-AM wrote:
2 problems:

First: There is no space within our galaxy for two more subrevolutions (minor sector around major sector and major sector around Uversa). Take a standard spiral galaxy and show me 10 major sectors in it, each with 100 minor sectors revolving around them. It is just not there!

Second: Show me two neighboring galaxies that would be positioned in the same plane our Milky Way is in. In your scenario we should be seeing these neighboring galaxies as edge-on, since they must be perfectly aligned. (And we would see them because they would be positioned well away from Sagittarius.)
The Urantia Book refers to Orvonton as the seventh galaxy, and 8 out of 10 major sectors of Orvonton have been identified by Urantian astronomers (15:3.4). Thus, what we call a galaxy, must be roughly the equivalent of what TUB calls a major sector. I don’t know why TUB doesn’t explicitly mention these 8 major sectors (apart from our own major sector: Splandon, which we mistakenly call: Milky Way galaxy). Possibly, because the revelators were not allowed to reveal information that would directly suggest that the vast milky way starry system is in fact our superuniverse and not just what we call our galaxy.

So, the term galaxy in TUB denotes a superuniverse, and a cluster of what we call galaxies. This is quite confusing, but the revelators may have been spot on. What we call the Milky Way and think of as our galaxy, is in fact our superuniverse: Orvonton.

The 8 identified major sections of our superuniverse may then be what we call: Milky Way galaxy, Large Magellanic Cloud, Small Magellanic Cloud, Andromeda, Triangulum galalaxy, Sculptor galaxy, and Bode's galaxy, which are all visible with the naked eye. All other so called galaxies must then be part of other superuniverses. Of course, these 8 major sectors of our superuniverse may be a different subset of what we call galaxies and which were identified as such by astronomers in the 1930’s (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_galaxies).

Now, all we need is one more subrevolution of 100 readily discernable minor sectors in each major sector. That must be so called globular clusters. A globular cluster is a spherical collection of stars that orbits (what we call) a galactic core as a satellite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_cluster). Star clouds or local universes, stellar clusters, and solar systems, then all exist within globular clusters..


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