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 Post subject: Sons of God?
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I wanted to know your opinion.
UB says that not everyone will be individualized, or
not all be immortal.
How can this be explained?
All of us who are born we are children of God
So what is the difference?
Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Sons of God?
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Some people choose not to live forever as a personality. The lasting value they have accrued during their lives goes into the Evolving Supreme. Nothing is lost. This is the importance of Free Will. We decide our own destiny. Do you want to be a side dish? or an ingredient in the soup?

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But then I might as well take the example of food?
I cultivate each food, then eat.
The metabolism auto body selects and distributes the nutrients.
A portion of the food ends up in the blood but most escapes from the body.
I ask you is what really matters will or is it something else?

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 Post subject: Re: Sons of God?
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13W12 wrote:
But then I might as well take the example of food?
I cultivate each food, then eat.
The metabolism auto body selects and distributes the nutrients.
A portion of the food ends up in the blood but most escapes from the body.
I ask you is what really matters will or is it something else?



....some seeds fall by the wayside and are devoured by the birds of heaven....

I’m getting hungry!


C


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 Post subject: Re: Sons of God?
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Hi Friend,

Just as life is a gift, so is free will a gift. If we were forced to accept the gift of life it would not be a gift anymore. It would be slavery. Our Father will not force us to accept the gift of life. Our will is sacred. So, if someone opts out of the eternal adventure that is accepted. It is sad surely, but it is their personal decision. Those that choose uncreation are no more. Yet their positive spiritual choices will reside forever in God the Supreme.

Love,
Paul


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I have to agree with Paul. Some people choose to go on and some people choose not to. That is the free will that everyone has--to be able to make choices and some choices are bad and some are good. But free will is left up to the individual to make the choice they want.


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That's right
but for our example, a child may choose to go away from us.
His legacy then, it will be misunderstood?

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 Post subject: Re: Sons of God?
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Mr. Shakita wrote:
Hi Friend,
Just as life is a gift, so is free will a gift. If we were forced to accept the gift of life it would not be a gift anymore. It would be slavery. Our Father will not force us to accept the gift of life. Our will is sacred. So, if someone opts out of the eternal adventure that is accepted. It is sad surely, but it is their personal decision. Those that choose uncreation are no more. Yet their positive spiritual choices will reside forever in God the Supreme.
Love,
Paul

I have a question. I have searched the online UB for "suicide." The word appears a number of times but not in the context of what happens to a person who chooses to commit suicide. Why do I ask this? Because you say a person can "opt out of the eternal adventure." So is suicide an acceptable way of "opting out of the eternal adventure," or is there some kind of punishment or deprivation associated with choosing this method?

Do not read anything sinister or personal into this question. I have known a number of people, in some cases close friends, who have suicided and I am just curious.


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No. In my opinion suicide is not a way of opting out of the eternal adventure. It is a way, however, of opting out of whatever seems unbearable right now. Just as there are different levels of consciousness and functioning, there are differing levels of survival. The body can die (or suicide) without permanently affecting the spirit. The mind can die, through disease or accident, without permanently affecting the spirit. Only the spirit can opt to not continue without permanently affecting the spirit. And I don't know if we are qualified, at this level, to make such a choice. But I AM making that choice, just in case.

P.S. There are no shortcuts, so opting out now to get there quicker is not going to cut it. We pick up there where we leave off here, so there is no sense in dying to avoid something unpleasant. Except, I do believe Dr. Kavorkian is onto something: mercy.

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Gerdean wrote:
P.S. There are no shortcuts, so opting out now to get there quicker is not going to cut it. We pick up there where we leave off here, so there is no sense in dying to avoid something unpleasant.

Okay it is time for me to be honest. As both my father's parents committed suicide, my sister and I suffer endogenous depression. It affected each of us differently. While she suffered low self esteem in the early part of her life, and severe chronic depression in the later period of her life, I did not suffer low self esteem or severe depression, but I have had to endure suicidal feelings on an almost daily basis for a large part of my life. Both of us use the same medication to counteract these feelings and make life at least tolerable.

NOBODY who has not felt suicidal can relate to this frame of mind. This I know from long experience. If you have never felt suicidal then no amount of empathy will make you understand it. Life just seems so horrible day after day, that the thought of enduring this indefinitely becomes not an acceptable option.

Christianity teaches that people who suicide will go to hell (everlasting torment being the traditional concept of hell). Theosophy teaches the person will hang around on the astral plane, observing what is going on in the physical world and regretting their decision to cut themselves off from it.

It would appear from what you say that UB offers a more agreeable state of affairs after suicide, than what is offered by Christianity or Theosophy.


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 Post subject: Re: Sons of God?
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Yes Mel -- The Urantia Book is neither Christianity nor Theosophy. Those who study it recognize it as true revelation -- unique, in a similar way to Jesus being truly unique in the world at the time he lived here.

Best wishes,
Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Sons of God?
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Melchizedek wrote:
.. It would appear from what [Gerdean says] that UB offers a more agreeable state of affairs after suicide, than what is offered by Christianity or Theosophy.
If that is true, then would you commit suicide? I think one should be focused on survival. Why? Because it seems to be a natural law, and you might learn some lessons in the material realm that you can’t learn in the spiritual realm. Thus, the longer you stay here, the better it ultimately might be..


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Yes, the UB offers a more agreeable state of affairs than what is offered by Christianity or Theosophy in every context. It is a revelation.

My brother committed suicide, as did one of my cousins. It seems the family did not know the cousin well enough to know why she might have done such a thing; to all appearances she was well and happy but evidently she wasn't. My brother was definitely unhappy, plus he was in pain. He had lost his leg in an accident and always felt like a cripple .. emotionally and physically; his prosthesis never fit right and his wife left him. He was not a religious man, but his parting shot was "I don't know what's going to happen to me when I leave here, but I know it will be better than what I'm experiencing now." So either he had faith we didn't know about or he thought non-existence would be better than what he had. I like to think he had hope.

I had another friend commit suicide when his car "failed to navigate the curve" as he knew it would. He, too, was in physical pain, having just had brain surgery for an anurism that left him alive but without a sense of smell (therefore taste) and his sight was leaving ... a rough prognosis for an artist. Plus his sweetheart dumped him. Sometimes life is more than we can handle.

The UB does not discuss what happens to suicides in Mansonia, but it does not threaten them with non-existence or hell fire and damnation. It says, in fact, in Paper 160, Rodan of Alexandria:
Quote:
160.1.5 Animals respond nobly to the urge of life, but only man can attain the art of living, albeit the majority of mankind only experience the animal urge to live. Animals know only this blind and instinctive urge; man is capable of transcending this urge to natural function. Man may elect to live upon the high plane of intelligent art, even that of celestial joy and spiritual ecstasy. Animals make no inquiry into the purposes of life; therefore they never worry, neither do they commit suicide. Suicide among men testifies that such beings have emerged from the purely animal stage of existence, and to the further fact that the exploratory efforts of such human beings have failed to attain the artistic levels of mortal experience. Animals know not the meaning of life; man not only possesses capacity for the recognition of values and the comprehension of meanings, but he also is conscious of the meaning of meanings — he is self-conscious of insight.
Better to accept the fact that LIFE IS DIFFICULT than to throw in the towel without due consideration and supreme effort, for if we cannot do something, there is One in us who could if we gave It a chance.

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Dear Melchizedek,

I did not want you to think that my post had anything to do with suicide. It had to do with decisions we make after we have died and find ourselves on the mansion worlds. Some decide that the eternal adventure is not for them. Such a decision is respected.

We live in such a darkened world due to the Lucifer rebellion. We have suffered interminably for at least two hundred thousand years. Who knew our long years of suffering? One Creator Son knew about our sufferings so he came here to live out his final bestowal. And what a bestowal it was. Love was victorious over hate. Light won out over darkness.

Don't you think that such a Son as that knows the despair that would drive a person to suicide? Those persons, such as your father's parents, did not see any way out. They thought that death would end all of their sufferings. Yet, what they did is not held against them. They now are alive and well, seeing the light for the first time.

So too, your sufferings will one day end. You live in a dark pit of despair at times, but inside of your mind there is a friend of yours. He understands your moments of deep depression. You feel like you are in a black hole from which there is no escape. Yet, at the event horizon a hand extends to you with rays of light. Throughout your life this One will never leave you. Let His love surround you when you feel that the darkness has enveloped you.

When you find Him it is like the sun is arising in your heart. A new day is dawning inside of your heart and inside of your soul. When the dark clouds surround you and light cannot penetrate then go within to find the light that will never go out. What you are feeling will not last forever. This too shall pass. Let the love that resides in your mind illuminate your path, guiding you home.

Love,
Paul


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Bart wrote:
Melchizedek wrote:
.. It would appear from what [Gerdean says] that UB offers a more agreeable state of affairs after suicide, than what is offered by Christianity or Theosophy.
If that is true, then would you commit suicide? I think one should be focused on survival. Why? Because it seems to be a natural law, and you might learn some lessons in the material realm that you can’t learn in the spiritual realm. Thus, the longer you stay here, the better it ultimately might be..

Hello Bart. Please re-read my post. It is a fact that no person who has not felt suicidal can understand the feeling. The very worst thing you can do to a suicidal person is to deny the reality of their feelings. This is enough to push them over the brink.

I have given you the opportunity to learn something you did not already know. So learn it in case you are ever confronted in person by a suicidal person. DO NOT SAY "There is no need for you to feel like that" because by so doing, you might just push them over the edge.

I have discussed this with people who are trained counsellors at a telephone crisis center. You DO NOT deny the person's feelings.


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