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 Post subject: Faith
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Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:10 pm +0000
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Hi there

Can someone kindly explain "faith" to me. It seems to be the root of everything presented in the Urantia book. As I understand it, it is the ultimate goal --the ultimate obtainment. However, aside from "believing in God" and "doing the will of God", I'm not sure I understand what it's all about. With so much emphasis put on the subject of faith, I feel as though I am missing something. Believing in God seems rather straight forward, however, doing the will of God is a little more difficult for me to understand --that is, without direct communication, what more can I do other than live morally and follow the commandments?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Hi Nyardream,

The Bible has an interesting definition of faith. "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of reality though not beheld." The Urantia book calls all faith sons and daughters, 'agondonters.' These are mortals that cannot see the spirit realm, nor have direct contact with the celestial realm, yet they still believe in the Father and the morontial worlds to come. We hope for the things of the next world even though we can only perceive our reality. We believe in the Paradise Father, even though we cannot see Him.

Our world has gone through the trials of the Lucifer rebellion. Had we lived on a world free of rebellion we may have had a more normal spiritual evolution. We would have received spiritual teachers from Paradise and the local universe which would have removed our status as agondonters. It would have removed our status as faith sons and daughters because we would no longer have to believe what we did not see. These celestial beings and their visit to our earth would have removed all doubt. There will come a time when our status as agondonters will end. Yet, we will take our experience of believing without seeing unto the halls of Paradise. We will have come through the fire and will be thoroughly tested. What now seems to be a disadvantage now, we will discover had always been an advantage. Because being an agondonter built in us spiritual qualities that we would not have otherwise developed.

Paul


Last edited by Mr. Shakita on Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:30 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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I think it is important to understand the difference between faith and belief. There is a fundamental difference between them despite the fact that we tend to use them interchangeably. Belief is a personal conviction in the existence of something often manifested by creed, dogma, laws, etc.. Faith, on the other hand, is a living relationship with God manifested through trust, loyalty and confidence. Faith is a personal religious experience, whereas belief is an intellectual experience.

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.Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. But living religious faith is more than the association of noble beliefs; it is more than an exalted system of philosophy; it is a living experience concerned with spiritual meanings, divine ideals, and supreme values; it is God-knowing and man-serving. Beliefs may become group possessions, but faith must be personal. Theologic beliefs can be suggested to a group, but faith can rise up only in the heart of the individual religionist. p1114:06-7


Do we say, "I believe in God," or "I have faith in God'? There is a difference. If we merely believe in God, we may be only conscious of an idea about him. But, if we have faith in him, he becomes a personality present within our lives. In other words, the idea of God, the belief that he exists is just a beginning step. The second is to have faith that he is actually present in our lives, which then results in the desire to be like God our Father, something mere belief cannot do. Faith is active and results in religious living through the recognition of living truth.

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John asked Jesus, "Master, what is the kingdom of heaven?" And Jesus answered: "The kingdom of heaven consists in these three essentials: first, recognition of the fact of the sovereignty of God; second, belief in the truth of sonship with God; and third, faith in the effectiveness of the supreme human desire to do the will of God--to be like God. And this is the good news of the gospel: that by faith every mortal may have all these essentials of salvation." p1586:01


The problem with facts and beliefs is that they are at the human and material end of the spectrum whereas truth and faith are at the spiritual end to which we are all progressing. Along the way, what we believe to be true is entirely relative and subject to change. Faith, on the other hand, is the firm foundation upon which all else is built. Beliefs come and go, facts change but faith assures us of constancy and growth. Beliefs are our personal convictions based upon our emotions, traditions, education, culture, etc., whereas faith is trust, loyalty and devotion based upon personal religious experience. Beliefs may cause doubts, but faith results in assurance.


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Hi Bonita,

I really appreciated this thought:

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But, if we have faith in him, he becomes a personality present within our lives. In other words, the idea of God, the belief that he exists is just a beginning step. The second is to have faith that he is actually present in our lives, which then results in the desire to be like God our Father, something mere belief cannot do. Faith is active and results in religious living through the recognition of living truth.


I remember that you informed me about self acting adjusters after I related an experience concerning my thought adjuster. Before I go to sleep I always pray to the Father. Some time ago as I was laying down in my bed before I went to sleep I asked Father to reveal to me what kind of thought adjuster that I had. I was shocked when I clearly heard the words: "You have a self acting adjuster." It was one of those wow moments.

Ever since that time the desire to become one with the Father has grown. His presence in my life has increased. I pray to Him throughout the day and discuss the things that are happening in my life. I pray to Him about the little things and He always comes through. I don't view His presence as out there in some unattainable place. I view His presence as real as if He was actually in front of me. There is no question in my mind anymore.

I have also had certain thoughts filter through that have astonished me. These thoughts come to my conscious awareness and I start to look at the world and my reality in a different way. This has been happening to me more frequently lately. I know that it is because my thought adjuster is communicating with me.

Thanks for pointing out the difference between faith and belief. I hadn't considered that before. Your words have just confirmed what is happening for a reality in my life. I am now living what you have pointed out. All of us are here because we desire to become one with the Father. As that desire grows, so grows our relationship with our Father fragment. As that relationship grows our faith grows. Our faith grows because in our hearts we are seeing the Paradise Father in faith that we cannot see with our eyes.

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Trust!


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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I make a choice to Believe in spit of any tangible evidence,
i grow to have Faith,... Blind faith, a trust in that which i can not see, but am beginning to have experiences that i can not explain any other way,
than through my experiences i begin to see the evidence that is consistent in my life that brings me in to a Knowing ..which for some culminates in to a Spiritual Awakening, which can not be told to any other human being to there satisfaction, but for you has clearly awakened you in to a Knowing that changes your life and forever, setting your life in a motion greater than it has ever had before.

That is how i define those words as i have experienced them.

You may have to decide for your self...in the spiritual journey the Webster definitions may not apply. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Dear Paul,

I recognize right away the truth of your experiences because I have experienced the same. TUB explains this phenomenon as a reality.

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When one mortal is in full agreement with the religious philosophy of a fellow mortal, that phenomenon indicates that these two beings have had a similar religious experience touching the matters concerned in their similarity of philosophic religious interpretation. p1130:02


I'd love to share my Thought Adjuster experiences, but the administration has already suspended me once for trying to explain it and I'm not going to go there again. Needless to say, I know that what you say is true, that the personal presence of the living God is a reality and the deeper the devotion, the more profound the experience; the greater the faith, the more direct is the answer to prayer. All things are possible with God.

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If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition. p1945:04


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Nyardream,
I believe the last part of your question holds the key to the answer:
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Believing in God seems rather straight forward, however, doing the will of God is a little more difficult for me to understand --that is, without direct communication, what more can I do other than live morally and follow the commandments?
Faith is the "Knowing" in your heart that God will be seeing your doing of his will by your attempting to live according to his commandments. Don't forget you can't escape his knowing because part of his Being (Thought Adjuster) is within you being a part of you and watching your every move, not to catch do doing something wrong but to assist you in any way he can to come to know him. It is the same type of watching that a parent does when the child is taking their first shaky steps. His will for us is to become perfect even as He is perfect, and this is done one small baby step at a time in our case. It may take all eternity (in my case) to accomplish. He is only asking for forward progress.
Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Belief is the "Hoping", whereas Faith is the "Knowing".


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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If God brings you to it, He will bring you
through it.
Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.


Just got this in another e-mail...

_________________
A fellow Agondonter...


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Hi, Bonita , I have a question . Why would admin. suspend you for talking about you T A , it all has to do with the urantia book ?
:?: :roll: :shock:

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be all that you can be , join God's corps of finaliters .


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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Sandrider -- first, can you describe the difference between a connection to the superconscious mind and one to the subconscious? Despite the superconscious mind being God driven, and although the subconscious links with the ego, we mere humans have a challenge differentiating between the two. I can't tell the difference, can you?

Second, just for the sake of argument, let's say someone actually does converse with God... more power to them... good for them, but their Adjuster is their guide, not yours, not anyone elses. You have your own Adjuster completely capable of doing just the right job for you, just as everyone elses does for them -- there's no spiritual value to you to know the guidance someone else receives from their Adjuster, and there's no value in someone else relating their personal/private God link except for the personal reason of ego gratification.

Third, people who believe they have special connections to higher sources often like to be seen as prophets and seers. We don't wish to encourage flights of fancy nor do we encourage the jostling for preference encountered when two or more prophets collide.

Fourth, we are skeptical of anyone on any discussion board claiming to be in contact with their Adjuster. The proportion of disillusioned and delusional people in the world so far exceeds the number of truly enlightened ones that the odds aren't worth entertaining.

Fifth, "But a human being would do better to err in rejecting an Adjuster’s expression through believing it to be a purely human experience than to blunder into exalting a reaction of the mortal mind to the sphere of divine dignity." One of the many quotes from The Urantia Book worth keeping in mind.

Sixth, Poster Guidelines state: "The following Urantia movement-related controversies are banned from discussion in any of the forums (overt or covert):
* The Teaching Mission / Channeling."

I hope that clears up any confusion or questions you may have had.

Best wishes,
Larry


Last edited by lwatkins on Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:28 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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I don't have any resentment Larry. None at all. And, I don't recall asking any questions that need answers clarified by you. Listen, I forgave you long ago for your mistreatment of me. I was simply explaining to Paul why I won't share my Adjuster experiences on this forum like he did. That's all. Nothing else.

Sorry you've misinterpreted my statement as a personal attack on you, it certainly was not meant as an attack. It is just a fact that I see no sense in sharing personal things with people who denigrate them. Remember, it is you who are accusing me of egotistical motives, delusional imaginings and self-absorption when you have no proof. I've done nothing, said nothing. And as TUB has taught us, I will say, "How do you know that I do not know?" (102:6.5 ) I certainly have no embarrassment about the truth. The onus is on you, my friend.

Nevertheless, Paul did share what his Thought Adjuster told him, which is against forum rules. You also allowed Jesse (think I spelled that right) to share what his/her Adjuster said in the recent past. I'm not even claiming that my Adjuster has told me anything. I never mentioned anything like that at all. Can you show me where I've made that claim? All I'm saying is that I will not share my Adjuster experiences on this forum because of past abuses, not only from you but from others as well. And you know darn right and well that we all have Adjuster experiences, you included. It's called personal religious experience, something TUB speaks highly of.

Larry, you claim that no one can tell the difference between the subconscious and the superconscious. I can assure you that there are those who can and TUB tells us that there are many alive today who are first circlers who are in contact with their Adjusters. Would they find it appropriate to post about this "contact" on Truthbook? I sincerely doubt it. More likely they would attempt to inspire others and offer help as a service.

So, I would appreciate it if you remove the last paragraph of your post because I consider it to be an ad hominem attack on my character which is also against forum rules. But, if you should chose to continue to address me so critically, I will not hold a grudge against you. That is for children. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Faith
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. . . something I've been thinking about so thought I'd toss it out there . . .

is it possible for someone to harbor resentment(s) and not realize it?

all for now, perhaps more later,
faithfully,
susan


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Listen, even Jesus had resentment. It all depends on what you do with it. Does it fester and result in inner conflict along with outer revenge? Is it bitter and filled with animosity, rancor and grudge holding? Or, is it simply a sense of indignation? Nevertheless, resentment needs to be dealt with, regardless if it is conscious or unconscious, if it causes conflict on any level. I, myself, am not conflicted.

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173.1.5 In the midst of this noisy aggregation of money-changers, merchandisers, and cattle sellers, Jesus, on this Monday morning, attempted to teach the gospel of the heavenly kingdom. He was not alone in resenting this profanation of the temple; the common people, especially the Jewish visitors from foreign provinces, also heartily resented this profiteering desecration of their national house of worship. At this time the Sanhedrin itself held its regular meetings in a chamber surrounded by all this babble and confusion of trade and barter.

168.1.4 2. He was perturbed in his mind by the presence of the crowd of mourners, some sincere and some merely pretenders. He always resented these outward exhibitions of mourning. He knew the sisters loved their brother and had faith in the survival of believers. These conflicting emotions may possibly explain why he groaned as they came near the tomb.

125.0.4 It had never occurred to Jesus that his mother was not to accompany him to the consecration ceremonies, and he was thoroughly indignant that she was made to suffer from such unjust discrimination. While he strongly resented this, aside from a few remarks of protest to his father, he said nothing. But he thought, and thought deeply, as his questions to the scribes and teachers a week later disclosed.

124.1.4 He resented their blaming his father for his alleged misdeeds; so in he marched, fearlessly confronting his accusers. The elders were thrown into confusion. Some were inclined to view the episode humorously, while one or two seemed to think the boy was sacrilegious if not blasphemous. Joseph was nonplused, Mary indignant, but Jesus insisted on being heard. He had his say, courageously defended his viewpoint, and with consummate self-control announced that he would abide by the decision of his father in this as in all other matters controversial. And the committee of elders departed in silence.


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