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Is their a difference between God and God's Presence?
Yes 60%  60%  [ 3 ]
No 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
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Iris, You made a point on a thread recently that reminded me of an experience I had last year related to Truthbook. You mentioned there being a difference between being conscious of God and conscious of God’s presence. In a following post you clarified the difference being a cognitive recognition of God vs. an experiential spiritual knowing of God as in the interaction between one and God’s presence.

Where the inner voice stops, and the spirit of truth begins?
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:28 am
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Thank you MaryJo, Joer and Gerdean for supporting my ideas. I think you all understand what I am trying to say and I appreciate your efforts to elaborate on them. I'd also like to point out, for the sake of discussion, that there is a difference between being conscious of God and being conscious of the presence of God.

Iris
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"Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human. Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God."1733:00


In a very interesting consecrated joint prayer between 4 TUB and Truthbook aficionados, in which I got a clear thought that I saw as an answer to my prayer about seeing God in The World and seeing God’s Presence in the World. But in my answer BOTH God and God’s Presence were to be seen as LIVING Experientially and Spiritually interactive God entities available to interact with us by our recognition of them in the world for our spiritual benefit and growth.

So I was just curious Iris, what you thought of that? Here’s the links for context and a few excerpts. God Bless You. Welcome back tomorrow!

Could We Petition a Supermortal Visit?
http://forums.truthbook.com/viewtopic.php?t=1727&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

Quote:
Hi all! I just wanted to express my thanks for all the love at this site. And I wanted to share my part of the result of our petition in prayer. We had 2 female and 2 male prayer petitioners. I think that created a good cooperative balance. As you can see from Jim's post on his prayer intentions change started occurring in us at the first desire of petition to God. Sometimes in Prayer I get very specific clearly worded usually short worded messages. More often than not I get an understanding of something that I was praying about.

At the end of my praying along the lines of the petition in this thread as I got up to prepare dinner for my daughter and I. I got these clear lines.
Quote:
See Me in the World
See My Presence in the World

The understanding I got was that God was telling me this. I wondered at first why it seemed like He was Repeating Himself. Almost at the instant I wondered it, the clarification came.

The Me in the world was God the Father. My Presence in the world was God the Mother.

The message fit me because for the last three weeks I've been being surrounded with indications to look for the feminine Presence of GOD. Thus my question to Paradise in another Thread about Shekhina that Coop gave an ample answer too.

And both Statements seem to answer the question of the thread for me. Our Supernatural being is here. We just need to have eyes that SEE and ears that HEAR.

Peace be with you my friends. :smile:

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Last edited by Joer on Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:46 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Awesome stuff Brother Joer. I wish I had some great feedback becuase of how many times you have answered my questions but I dont fully comprehend your question.

I do on the other hand have an experience to share with you.

When I finished reading part 4 of TUB I was struck by such sorrow and remorse almost like a judgment field day that I had about myself. Most certainly it could be considered an invetory check on my behalf. I had felt so sad because I knew right then that I had been living my life so selfishly, not concerned with others or my own spirituality at all.

I grew up Catholic and was baptised of course at a young age. So as a child I grew up very curious about Jesus and God and the Devil. As an adult that all went down the drain so I thought.

After reading part 4 I came home and my fiance was on the porch smoking a cigarette so I went out there to join her and all of the sudden an presence of warmth, comfort, and acceptance came over me that was so over whelming that I wept like a little girl with a skid knee on the play ground. I cried and cried and cried some more and of course my fiance was like... Ut Oh he got into the wacky tabacky or something but I explained to her for over an hour out on the balcany about how I felt Jesus' presence and how he is accepting me with all of these faults and how horrible that I felt to have lived my entire life being self concerned, and being so praise selfish.

Needless to say I felt like the scum on the bottom of someones shoe but the presence of Jesus was felt. I knew that he was there to comfort me even while I was judging myself. It was the most powerful feeling in the world. And I can say this to your question that I partly understand... I have known of god's existance my entire life, never doubted it, never thought other wise and also never cared, but once I felt his arms embrase me fill my spiritual black hole with light and love it was such a feeling of over whelming bliss that it trully cannot be put into words how much love I felt after feeling his presence versus knowing that he is.

I hope in someway this gives a different perspective on this question.

Thank you for posting such a rad topic because I was able to share a little bit of my own experience to answer a question.

Peace and love to you brother Joer

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GODs Day Again to You All 8)

'' BOTH God and God’s Presence were to be seen as LIVING Experiential and Spiritually interactive God entities available to interact with us by our recognition of them in the world for our spiritual benefit and growth. ''

Bro Jose / Joer 8) Profound & Awsome Dude :wink:

Inspireing . Thanks man , U '' Make My Day '' :mrgreen: brother_dave 8)

" but once I felt his arms embrase me fill my spiritual black hole with light and love it was such a feeling of over whelming bliss that it trully cannot be put into words how much love I felt after feeling his presence versus knowing that he is. ''

AMEN MY BRO AMEN I too Have felt that same Spirit Light Within & From Without It fills every Micro Macro Cell within your Body / Mind . Soul & Spirit For Each of Us its Personal & Unique A Embrace of Pure LOVE . It Validates that Power of LOVE to us , with us & within US . ... And the Real Bonus IS ... That we in turn Can Share that LOVE .

With ALL those WE in turn Love also .
NAMASTAE
Aint GOD GOOD & Great ?
Faith son Coop
Love Is the Inner Peace of Knowing & Being Known .


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Brother Dave and Cooper, God Bless you my friends. My daughter asked my sister who was visiting this last week end if she ever had an epiphany. And what you just described my brother was one. I feel so blessed Brother Dave that you shared that with us here. I know I've felt that way before and I heard many here express similar experiences.

Cooper has felt it and he like myself and I imagine so many here just rejoice hearing of your experience. It's really beautiful Bro. I hope you didn't blow your fiancée away with your emotion. She probably said something like "Your getting all EMO on me!" :smile:

It really is beautiful. I've felt that pain of sadness of not being spiritual enough and not having live my life the way I do now with God living in it with me.

I don't have to tell you it's cool It's OK. You already felt that from our Lord and Master.

I read a book about modern day revelations. I posted it here a little over a year ago. I believe it was by Thomas Petroski. He had a story about a young man in Australia who was receive a revelation from God the Father. I think I mentioned it to Burgo when he was posting. Anyway in one of the revelations The young Guy said that when God comes, his light will be so pure and his being so Loving that it will illuminate us to the point where in contrast to His Light we can see our lives reflected in it. And that the death and destruction that so many attribute to God will actually be those of us who can't stand to see the awfulness of our life, things so terrible in comparison to God's Light that we will want to die and won't want to go on to Eternal Life.

If those of us who felt like that could only accept God's forgiveness we would be healed of our despair.

I've felt what you've felt, Brother-Dave. Both the love and peace and the hurt of my spiritually poorly led life. I beseech God in all God's being and personality to Guide me to live a better life. And I rejoice in your experience Dave. I believe you'll remember it for some time as Life-changing experience.

I love Coop's Love and the love of all those here who carry me on Eagle's Wings. Bless you and your fiancée, Brother-Dave. May you live life fully in God's Love, Loving Embrace, Peace and Contentment.

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Joer wrote:
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But in my answer BOTH God and God’s Presence were to be seen as LIVING Experientially and Spiritually interactive God entities available to interact with us by our recognition of them in the world for our spiritual benefit and growth. So I was just curious Iris, what you thought of that?


"The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms." 150:03-04

"The soul's spiritual capacity for receptivity determines the quantity of heavenly blessings which can be personally appropriated and consciously realized as an answer to prayer." 1621:03

"The God of universal love unfailingly manifests himself to everyone of his creatures up to the fullness of that creature’s capacity to spiritually grasp the qualities of divine truth, beauty and goodness." 27:00

"Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities." 31:02

"Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to "enter fully into the joy of their Lord." 1917:03

"The mind presence of Deity must be determined by the depth of individual intellectual experience and by the evolutionary personality level. The spiritual presence of Divinity must of necessity be differential in the universe. It is determined by the spiritual capacity of receptivity and by the degree of the consecration of the creature's will to the doing of the divine will." 62:01

"You become conscious of man as your creature brother because you are already conscious of God as your Creator Father. Fatherhood is the relationship out of which we reason ourselves into the recognition of brotherhood. And Fatherhood becomes, or may become, a universe reality to all moral creatures because the Father has himself bestowed personality upon all such beings and has encircuited them within the grasp of the universal personality circuit. We worship God, first, because he is, then, because he is in us, and last, because we are in him." 196:10

"In the experience of finding the Father in heaven you discover that all men are your brothers" 1431:01

“The brotherhood of man is, after all, predicated on the recognition of the fatherhood of God.” 598:02

iris


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Joer said,

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Iris, You made a point on a thread recently that reminded me of an experience I had last year related to Truthbook. You mentioned there being a difference between being conscious of God and conscious of God’s presence. In a following post you clarified the difference being a cognitive recognition of God vs. an experiential spiritual knowing of God as in the interaction between one and God’s presence.


I can share these real life experiences with you.

As a youth, I was primarily aware of the presence of God via my parents’ discussions, catechism classes, and youthful observations of men and women of faith.

As I’ve grown older, I am often sadden by the observations of mature adults still comfortably embracing those same youthful impressions – an “awareness of but no joy in the presence of.” I wonder what the true impediment for uncoerced spiritual growth toward “true religion” – a personal relationship between creature and creator – is involved with these older children of God? Is it the fear of abandoning a comfort zone that somehow might threaten a PRESONAL BASE FOR RETREAT FROM THE RIGORS OF TEMPORAL REALITY?

As recently experienced, I had a serious infection that I neglected too long. My doctor wanted me to immediately go an aggressive dosage of two different kinds of antibiotics – so I did. After two days of these drugs, which included my other drugs for High Blood Pressure and Diabities, I had a few scary reactions to these drugs. This happened two days before Christmas, and all three of our children were in town to celibrate the start of Michael’s sojourn on this planet.

In the presence of my family, I became dizzy & disoriented. Then I began to have difficulty breathing – very shallow breaths. No one thought that it might be a drug interaction. With my family history of heart attacks, high blood pressure, and diabetes, the abulance was called and told a heart attack was taking place in our home. I was rushed to the hospital, admitted and close observation and numerous tests on my brain, heart and lungs were initiated. No troubles found! I was sent home at noon on Christmas Day.

During this entire time, I’m sure my wife and kids were praying for me. I wasn’t. I was too mad at myself for ruining everyone’s Christmas celebration and upset with all the anticipated medical bills that insurance didn’t cover. What a pity party – huh!

I went home, and upon the advice of doctor’s, I began the same aggressive regime of drug cocktails. Yep – had the same serious reaction again. This time – it was automatic – my awareness of the presence of God was the immeidate calm required for me to begin controling my own outward reaction – with a wonderful calming effect on my wife and children. My cheerful acknowledgement to all present that I understood it was a drug interaction and that it was manageable, everyone relaxed. The doctor’s nurse was contacted and concurred with stopping the antibiotics until I heard from my doctor. As it stands, I’m on a continuing small dosage of one antibiotic for the next month and all is well.

The important point of course – in my mind – was my awareness of the presence of God during this new occurrence. While I had on-going awareness of my body functions stabilizing and improving, I was “mostly” centered into a mental/spiritual wandering – a daydream really – where I was in a magficient library. Some family and friends were there while I was being escorted from room to room in a tour of the facilities. The detail was incredible and I’ve had another library dream subsequently. As I went from day dreaming into a REM cycle of sleep, I awoke “clean and green” again several hours later!

This most was for me an awareness of and a visit with, God; I was conscious of God’s presence. It made me smile. :smile:

All the best, Ray


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Hi Joe,

I can't tell much of any difference between the two.

I didn't vote in the poll as I would have added more choices.

TNX

Vann

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It has been my experience that Knowledge OF God or ABOUT God is not of necessity the same as KNOWING God... neither is Knowing God of necessity the same as being in His Presence. When you are in His Presence it is more than just a consciousness of Him. It is more than just a feeling. It is an indescribable reality that transcends feeling, thought, and sensation.

You know it when you are in His Presence as compared with being conscious of Him. There is most definitely a difference and the UB describes it:

Quote:
"The mind presence of Deity must be determined by the depth of individual intellectual experience and by the evolutionary personality level. The spiritual presence of Divinity must of necessity be differential in the universe. It is determined by the spiritual capacity of receptivity and by the degree of the consecration of the creature's will to the doing of the divine will."


Just because someone declares to have an immense knowledge of or about God, does not necessarily mean they have a personal realtionship with Him to the degree that they can differentiate between His literal Presence and their being God-conscious.

KP

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KP said:

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Just because someone declares to have an immense knowledge of or about God, does not necessarily mean they have a personal realtionship with Him to the degree that they can differentiate between His literal Presence and their being God-conscious.

KP, to the degree that you trust the revelations in TUB, we know of the literal presence of our TA’s as well as the literal assistance of the Spirit of Truth. I agree that an individual conscious effort/desire to establish a relationship with God is evidence that God has established a relationship with us. IN TIME, this relationship is improved/perfected in degrees to the extent that such differentiation is possible – perhaps – I’m still working on it.

On another thread I am on record for stating the following:

Quote:
Co-creation is cool. Inspired from on high is honorable. Voices speaking to me in some inner conversation that I try to attribute to God's voice gives me pause. Insight, direction and uncommon clarity provided to a question posed to the spirit within is something that I personally have experienced. I've never heard voices yet I don't feel deprived.


All the best, Ray


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That is an excellent point Ray

There is a passage somewhere that states that very thing.

Paraphrased, it goes something like this:

The action that a person takes to seek for God is proof in itself that God has already found him.

That's not exact but is close.

Another profound bit of truth in a book full of thousands.

Thanks!

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Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing "the Father's will." And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you. 2078:02


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Thanks Iris, Ray Kp and Vann.

A lot of Good stuff. Ray you sound like me with all those ailments. God I’m so glad you had the second experience. It must have given you much more confidence personally and the calm you speck off sounds so comforting.

Iris you bring up a lot of Good points. I’d like to get into my experience a little deeper with you because you bring up such apropos excerpts from TUB.

KP your comments on being consciously aware of God and the spiritual awareness of God’s presence seems pretty tight to me. The one quote you highlighted that Iris also posted is short and sweet but contains a ton of truth in it.

Vann, Iris nailed that one you were quoting too. It’s such an excellent quote. I seen it on quote of the day and used when sharing with friends who have doubts of God.

I’m glad you’re OK Ray. Pun intended. I’ve had similar reactions with drugs prescribed to me. I’ve often said I’ll be OK as long as the doctors don’t kill me. With high blood pressure and diabetes it’s very hard to get a stable regimen of pills. Then they through in a new one and everything goes haywire for a while until you get back to stability again. I went to the doctors again today. Got my labs outta the way but made a mistake about complaining about chest pains again and now I’m off to a cardiologist again. I’ll have to try and get that Presence feeling like you had when I go see him so he doesn’t have to be too worried about fixing me.

Ray wrote:
Quote:
As I’ve grown older, I am often sadden by the observations of mature adults still comfortably embracing those same youthful impressions – an “awareness of but no joy in the presence of.”

As you’ve written here Ray and KP and Iris have mentioned also. Many people cognitively know God BUT they don’t God in themselves or in others or in the world around them. I think most do have an experience of God’s Presence which they may call being conscious of God being with them. So that reinforces their cognitive knowledge of GOD with their personal experience of GOD. Now TUB seems to increase our cognitive knowledge of Who and what God is as well of what our relationship with God is. I know it says somewhere in TUB that it is through the mind that we come to know spirit. And through the spirit that we come to know God.

I believe TUB increases our cognitive capacity to know God and Spirit and through our mind and knowledge we are enabled to SEE God and HEAR GOD. It’s not “voices” it’s “thoughts”. And we don’t see visions or apparitions physically of God. We SEE via a new perspective. So we look at the same thing as a person standing next to us. But they don’t see what we see. I’ll bet someone in Ray’s family noticed something different about him when he had the second reaction while God’s presence was profoundly with him probably within and without around him. I don’t think anyone saw a change in his aura but if someone could or they had the right energy detection equipment they may have noticed something.

I understand what Vann said about there not being enough Choices. Because just saying God is two general. There are many personalities or differentiations of “GOD” and each has it’s realm of function.

So Iris’ excerpts were excellent in terms of how to increase our ability to “SEE. And I see better what she was talking about. She was talking about the cognitive knowing of God vs. the spiritual knowing of God which involves detecting God’s presence.

I was heading in a little different direction. Which has more to do with what I see as the reason for Vann’s choice not participate in the poll. There’s wasn’t sufficient definition of God in the question. I was exploring the question of the difference between God the first Source and Center and God’s Presence which I believe is a Spiritual Presence and may be a differentiation or derivative of the Third Source and Center. What was referred to in the past as The Shekhina. A feminine Hebraic word to represent The Presence of God on Earth.

And the whole thing was in response to a prayer that has to do with the question KP has been entertaining, when will our next visit by a supermortal or supernatural being occur.

SO the other understanding I got from this perceived answer to my prayer was the supermortal is already here. It’s GOD in us and around us. And we just need to SEE GOD in the world. Which is what Iris posts direct us to developing that very potential within us and RAY’s experience reminds us of.

Thank You guys and Iris. :o

So rather than a difference between cognitive God and experiencing the Presence of God, I’m looking for differentiation in God Him/Herself. Or what is the difference between God the Father and the Presence of God?
What’s the difference between God in general and God’s Presence. Here’s some of the stuff I was looking at:

Quote:
"It would also be consistent to refer to the liaison of all spiritual ministry as the spirit of God, for such a liaison is truly the union of the spirits of God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, and God the Sevenfold--even the spirit of God the Supreme.

The Seven Master Spirits of Paradise are the primary personalities of the Infinite Spirit. In this sevenfold creative act of self-duplication the Infinite Spirit exhausted the associative possibilities mathematically inherent in the factual existence of the three persons of Deity. Had it been possible to produce a larger number of Master Spirits, they would have been created, but there are just seven associative possibilities, and only seven, inherent in three Deities. And this explains why the universe is operated in seven grand divisions, and why the number seven is basically fundamental in its organization and administration.

The Conjoint Creator, the Infinite Spirit, is necessary to the completion of the triune personalization of undivided Deity. This threefold Deity personalization is inherently sevenfold in possibility of individual and associative expression; hence the subsequent plan to create universes inhabited by intelligent and potentially spiritual beings, duly expressive of the Father, Son, and Spirit, made the personalization of the Seven Master Spirits inescapable. We have come to speak of the threefold personalization of Deity as the absolute inevitability, while we have come to look upon the appearance of the Seven Master Spirits as the subabsolute inevitability.

While the Seven Master Spirits are hardly expressive of threefold Deity, they are the eternal portrayal of sevenfold Deity, the active and associative functions of the three ever-existent persons of Deity. By and in and through these Seven Spirits, the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, or the Infinite Spirit, or any dual association, is able to function as such. When the Father, the Son, and the Spirit act together, they can and do function through Master Spirit Number Seven, but not as the Trinity. The Master Spirits singly and collectively represent any and all possible Deity functions, single and several, but not collective, not the Trinity. Master Spirit Number Seven is personally nonfunctional with regard to the Paradise Trinity, and that is just why he can function personally for the Supreme Being.

But when the Seven Master Spirits vacate their individual seats of personal power and superuniverse authority and assemble about the Conjoint Actor in the triune presence of Paradise Deity, then and there are they collectively representative of the functional power, wisdom, and authority of undivided Deity--the Trinity--to and in the evolving universes. Such a Paradise union of the primal sevenfold expression of Deity does actually embrace, literally encompass, all of every attribute and attitude of the three eternal Deities in Supremacy and in Ultimacy. To all practical intents and purposes the Seven Master Spirits do, then and there, encompass the functional domain of the Supreme-Ultimate to and in the master universe.

No one of the Seven Spirits is organically representative of the Paradise Trinity, but when they unite as sevenfold Deity, this union in a deity sense--not in a personal sense--equivalates to a functional level associable with Trinity functions. In this sense the "Sevenfold Spirit" is functionally associable with the Paradise Trinity. It is also in this sense that Master Spirit Number Seven sometimes speaks in confirmation of Trinity attitudes or, rather, acts as spokesman for the attitude of the Sevenfold-Spirit-union regarding the attitude of the Threefold-Deity-union, the attitude of the Paradise Trinity."

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You know, the best way to answer questions such as

Quote:
is there a difference in the cognitive recognition of God vs. an experiential spiritual knowing of God


is to actually experience the difference rather than trying to analyze it!

Quote:
I believe TUB increases our cognitive capacity to know God and Spirit and through our mind and knowledge we are enabled to SEE God and HEAR GOD. It’s not “voices” it’s “thoughts”. And we don’t see visions or apparitions physically of God.


God is not an apparition, nor is his voice a "thought". He is a real person and manifests to us as a Person. Our natural mind cannot comprehend spiritual things, so when we see or hear Him or experience His presence it is not a "representation" or a "thought", it is just as tangible as a physical, material manifestation.

Quote:
Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God


This is so very, very true of most people I have encountered.

Sad

KP

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Part 1

Joer wrote:
Quote:
what is the difference between God the Father and the Presence of God?

Nothing, there is no difference. Experiencing the presence of God the Father is a matter of personality recognition of reality.
Quote:
"There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one. Even the work of the Thought Adjusters, though independent of all other influences, unvaryingly coincides with the spirit ministry of the combined influences of the Infinite Spirit and a local universe Mother Spirit. As these spiritual presences operate in the lives of Urantians, they cannot be segregated. In your minds and upon your souls they function as one spirit, notwithstanding their diverse origins. And as this united spiritual ministration is experienced, it becomes to you the influence of the Supreme, "who is ever able to keep you from failing and to present you blameless before your Father on high."95:07

"It would also be consistent to refer to the liaison of all spiritual ministry as the spirit of God, for such a liaison is truly the union of the spirits of God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, and God the Sevenfold--even the spirit of God the Supreme." 96:02

"The progressive comprehension of reality is the equivalent of approaching God. The finding of God, the consciousness of identity with reality, is the equivalent of the experiencing of self-completion--self-entirety, self-totality. The experiencing of total reality is the full realization of God, the finality of the God-knowing experience.2094:01


iris


Last edited by Bonita on Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:15 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Part 2

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What’s the difference between God in general and God’s Presence."

“Jesus not only revealed God to man, but he also made a new revelation of man to himself and to other men. In the life of Jesus you see man at his best. Man thus becomes so beautifully real because Jesus had so much of God in his life, and the realization (recognition) of God is inalienable and constitutive in all men.” 196:03

iris


Last edited by Bonita on Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:31 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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