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 Post subject: Isaiah 45:7
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Someone asked me once "is Isaiah 45:7b" true?

King James Version
Quote:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

New King James Verson
Quote:
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'

NIV
Quote:
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

HNV
Quote:
I form the light, and create darkness; I make shalom, and create evil. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

RSV
Quote:
I form light and create darkness, I make weal [well being] and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
(insert mine)

The Hebrew word translated "evil" here means "sorrow, wretchedness, calamity, adversity or affliction."

The Urantia Book says that Isaiah (the second) wrote chapters 40 - 55 in the Bible. Isaiah was written in ancient Hebrew. As stated above, the Hebrew text for "evil" could be translated at least 5 ways (all meaning something very similar).. but our perception of "evil" (at least for some) is "darker" than maybe sorrow or some of the other words used.

Calamity means great misfortune or disaster. That isn't necessarily "evil".

Isaiah wrote these chapters and the UB seems to give him credit:
Quote:
p1068:4 97:7.4 The Jewish priesthood made liberal use of these writings subsequent to the captivity, but they were greatly hindered in their influence over their fellow captives by the presence of a young and indomitable prophet, Isaiah the second, who was a full convert to the elder Isaiah's God of justice, love, righteousness, and mercy. He also believed with Jeremiah that Yahweh had become the God of all nations. He preached these theories of the nature of God with such telling effect that he made converts equally among the Jews and their captors. And this young preacher left on record his teachings, which the hostile and unforgiving priests sought to divorce from all association with him, although sheer respect for their beauty and grandeur led to their incorporation among the writings of the earlier Isaiah. And thus may be found the writings of this second Isaiah in the book of that name, embracing chapters forty to fifty-five inclusive.

Quote:
p1069:4 97:7.9 This Isaiah conducted a far-flung propaganda of the gospel of the enlarging concept of a supreme Yahweh. He vied with Moses in the eloquence with which he portrayed the Lord God of Israel as the Universal Creator. He was poetic in his portrayal of the infinite attributes of the Universal Father. No more beautiful pronouncements about the heavenly Father have ever been made. Like the Psalms, the writings of Isaiah are among the most sublime and true presentations of the spiritual concept of God ever to greet the ears of mortal man prior to the arrival of Michael on Urantia. Listen to his portrayal of Deity: "I am the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity." "I am the first and the last, and beside me there is no other God." "And the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save, neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear." And it was a new doctrine in Jewry when this benign but commanding prophet persisted in the preachment of divine constancy, God's faithfulness. He declared that "God would not forget, would not forsake."

p1069:5 97:7.10 This daring teacher proclaimed that man was very closely related to God, saying: "Every one who is called by my name I have created for my glory, and they shall show forth my praise. I, even I, am he who blots out their transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember their sins."

p1069:6 97:7.11 Hear this great Hebrew demolish the concept of a national God while in glory he proclaims the divinity of the Universal Father, of whom he says, "The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool." And Isaiah's God was none the less holy, majestic, just, and unsearchable. The concept of the angry, vengeful, and jealous Yahweh of the desert Bedouins has almost vanished. A new concept of the supreme and universal Yahweh has appeared in the mind of mortal man, never to be lost to human view. The realization of divine justice has begun the destruction of primitive magic and biologic fear. At last, man is introduced to a universe of law and order and to a universal God of dependable and final attributes.

p1070:1 97:7.12 And this preacher of a supernal God never ceased to proclaim this God of love. "I dwell in the high and holy place, also with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit." And still further words of comfort did this great teacher speak to his contemporaries: "And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your soul. You shall be like a watered garden and like a spring whose waters fail not. And if the enemy shall come in like a flood, the spirit of the Lord will lift up a defense against him." And once again did the fear-destroying gospel of Melchizedek and the trust-breeding religion of Salem shine forth for the blessing of mankind.

So, my question is... how can that verse be justified in the light of what the Urantia Book says throughout about God? I can't seem to find anything to do so.. even though I do believe that nothing has been made or exists outside of Him or without His knowledge.

Does anyone have any ideas or knowledge about this?

Thanks (and sorry about so much quoting)..
KP :!: :?:


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Hi KP

My interpretation lies more along the lines of Jesus' words:

"The Father causes his rain to fall on the just and the unjust; the sun likewise shines on the righteous and the unrighteous." 1830:04

"Your Father in heaven makes the sun to shine on the evil as well as upon the good; likewise he sends rain on the just and the unjust." 1571:03

"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Mt 5:45

Isaiah 45 is mostly about the Lord being One and there being none beside him, meaning he has power over everything, both good and evil.

iris


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Kreneep,

IMO, Isaiah 45:7 demonstrates the attitude of an insanely false god.

In my sincere quest for Truth, I have found this relevant to the Bible and especially Isaiah 45:7

Is the Bible the Devil's Tool?

Here is a specific quote (in case members of this forum are offended by what Amitakh Stanford has to say in her rather lengthy essay):

Quote:
Judaism, with its monist approach, made Yahweh responsible for all the good and bad things in the world, including the Adversary. Thus, according to Judaism, both good and evil belong to God; evil is but a negative aspect of God - His shadow or dark side that falls on the Hebrews when they offend Him. This view is clearly exemplified in the Old Testament as in the book of Isaiah 45:7:

I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do these things.

Thus, the Hebrews believed that all the things that happened in people's lives occurred according to the will of their God, Yahweh, the one and only all-powerful creator of all things who represented both good and evil. The idea that evil represents the shadow of God continues to influence many people today. Consequently, moral evil - that which occurs when a human being knowingly and deliberately inflicts suffering on another - is attributed to the dark side of humankind, which mirrors the dark side of God. No wonder there are many who resist the concept of absolute evil and claim that there is no evil.

Perhaps one of the reasons why the dualist concept of evil is rejected in favour of the monist notion is because the dualist idea of evil is too painful for those who cannot bear to think that one of their loved ones could, in fact, be a False-Light being of Darkness. Therefore, it is comforting for them to believe that there is only one creation and that there is good and evil in everyone, and that the evil in us is only the shadow of the good. This type of denial gets them nowhere. Certainly, very few evil ones would want to admit that they are evil. Therefore, it is convenient for them to deny the existence of absolute evil.


Warning: this essay is not intended to keep the reader in his or her comfort zone. It is of the Gnostic (not ag-nostic) perspective. If you find no truth, meaning, or value in the Gnostic perspective then I respectfully suggest that you do not read this essay as it probably does not reflect the teachings of the Urantia Book. But if you do not fear to have your apple cart turned over, then perhaps reading this essay with an extremely open mind might yield some insight relevant to your sincere questions. You decide.

Randy

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I think that TUB exalts second Isaiah because of its revelatory content and its poetic beauty in describing a non-vindictive God. Second Isaiah was the first prophet to reveal that Yahweh is more than the national or tribal god of Israel, but the one God of all "and there is none other", which was the beginning of true monotheism.

iris


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Thanks Iris and rhermen for your comments...

I am still left a little confused as to why Isaiah would write such a statement as

Quote:
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'


I do know that I do not believe that there is a "dark" side to God, anywhere in existence. And as far as the Bible goes, there was a time I believed it was the infallible Word of God (I don't now)...

I guess that verse will have to remain a "mystery" and I'll just go on...

Thanks
KP


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Howdy, folks.

Hi, Kreneep. You ask good questions.

Quote:
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'


I'm not sure exactly what Isaiah meant, and he is unavailable for comment. So we are left to our own devices.

Iris's responses sound right on to me. Of course, I'm fluent in blather.:smile:

And to say Isaiah' writings were the "most beautiful" does not say that they were the most accurate.

Furthermore, Isaiah is writing in his time. He is contrasting the idea of one ultimate God with to the current idea of many gods, national and otherwise. And an "ultimate" God must ultimately be responsible for everything. Even evil. This is not to say that God visits evil on individuals. But that God must be ultimately responsible for the very concept of afflictions. We have individual free will, and of course are individually responsible for our own problems. But God created us and our free will, and is ultimately responsible for the creation of the evolutionary worlds where all this takes place. No other but God created the worlds where evil and sin are potential. No other but God is responsible for the creation of these worlds. No other but God could create these or any other worlds.

To me, Isaiah is saying that like President Harry Truman, there is a sign on God's desk that says, "The buck stops here."

Yes, God created darkness and light and everything else. But this does not mean that God has a dark side.

Peace,
Arc


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Arc Fixer

Wow!... You know how when you have a question and someone answers it in such a way that the Truth therein becomes a revelation to your mind? Well, your answer made me weep because of that "truth" which you have spoken and it touched me deeply... I bear witness to that truth and what a great feeling!
Quote:
And an "ultimate" God must ultimately be responsible for everything. Even evil. This is not to say that God visits evil on individuals. But that God must be ultimately responsible for the very concept of afflictions. We have individual free will, and of course are individually responsible for our own problems. But God created us and our free will, and is ultimately responsible for the creation of the evolutionary worlds where all this takes place. No other but God created the worlds where evil and sin are potential. No other but God is responsible for the creation of these worlds. No other but God could create these or any other worlds.

Can't tell you why, just know it did...

Thank you
KP :o :!:


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Sorry guys but i think these passages are correct: :smile:

Quote:
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create evil;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'


God created evil... He creates everything in the universe with an equal opposite - positives and negatives. Evil is not a separate force, it's a lack of goodness, just as darkness is a lack of light.

Good and evil are Gods Will, since all things originate from the Father, seems though He is the ultimate source of everything. All good that comes to us and all evil that befalls us flow originally from Gods will, with being the source of all things. When we use our freewill and make a wrong choice out of several available options, evil or calamity follows. because evil is the absence of good, or its opposite that follows a wrong choice by us. So yes it's true that evil comes from ourselves.

"It is also possible that what appears to be evil may very well turn out to be good in the end. In such cases evil is no more than a means of spiritual growth for man, and need not necessarily be "evil" in reality. "

"We can also view the whole matter from a different angle as well. Everything is from God/Allah; and so we are from Allah. Evil is from us ourselves; but since we are from Allah, the evil that comes from us can also be attributed to the original source of all, namely Allah Almighty. So there is absolutely no contradiction in the verses you referred to.

In this scheme, humanity alone has a unique status as people can exercise freewill, where "evil" has a significant role along with good."



Love all your questions Kreneep... but i think Arc fixer answered your question perfectly....

Love Sarah


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God did not create evil, he created the potential for evil.

'The creature repercussion to finite-reality promulgation resulted in the appearance of perfect beings on the order of the eternal inhabitants of Havona and of perfected evolutionary ascenders from the seven superuniverses. But to attain perfection as an evolutionary (time-creative) experience implies something other-than-perfection as a point of departure. Thus arises imperfection in the evolutionary creations. And this is the origin of potential evil. Misadaptation, disharmony, and conflict, all these things are inherent in evolutionary growth, from physical universes to personal creatures.'' 1159:04

Potential evil does not become actual evil until a will creature chooses it.

"Potential evil is inherent in the necessary incompleteness of the revelation of God as a time-space-limited expression of infinity and eternity. The fact of the partial in the presence of the complete constitutes relativity of reality, creates necessity for intellectual choosing, and establishes value levels of spirit recognition and response. The incomplete and finite concept of the Infinite which is held by the temporal and limited creature mind is, in and of itself, potential evil. But the augmenting error of unjustified deficiency in reasonable spiritual rectification of these originally inherent intellectual disharmonies and spiritual insufficiencies, is equivalent to the realization of actual evil." 1435:06

The spiritual evolution of a will creature decreases the potential for evil and eventually eliminates it.

"Spiritual evolution is an experience of the increasing and voluntary choice of goodness attended by an equal and progressive diminution of the possibility of evil. With the attainment of finality of choice for goodness and of completed capacity for truth appreciation, there comes into existence a perfection of beauty and holiness whose righteousness eternally inhibits the possibility of the emergence of even the concept of potential evil. Such a God-knowing soul casts no shadow of doubting evil when functioning on such a high spirit level of divine goodness." 1460:01

iris


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Iris:
Quote:
God did not create evil, he created the potential for evil.

Quote me:
Quote:
Evil is from us ourselves; but since we are from God, the evil that comes from us can also be attributed to the original source of all, namely God Almighty.

Same thing... There is nothing in the universes that can be created unless God wills it first...

Take care
Love Sarah


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If GOD is so good, why does God let us suffer?… Or does He?

P.1429 - §1 Jesus' last visit with Gadiah had to do with a discussion of good and evil. This young Philistine was much troubled by a feeling of injustice because of the presence of evil in the world alongside the good. He said: "How can God, if he is infinitely good, permit us to suffer the sorrows of evil; after all, who creates evil?" It was still believed by many in those days that God creates both good and evil, but Jesus never taught such error. In answering this question, Jesus said: "My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.

P.1429 - §2 "Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest." Gadiah was fully satisfied with Jesus' answer to his question after their subsequent discussion had made clear to his mind the real meaning of these momentous statements.

P.51 - §2 In the affairs of men's hearts the Universal Father may not always have his way; but in the conduct and destiny of a planet the divine plan prevails; the eternal purpose of wisdom and love triumphs.

P.51 - §3 Said Jesus: "My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." As you glimpse the manifold workings and view the staggering immensity of God's well-nigh limitless creation, you may falter in your concept of his primacy, but you should not fail to accept him as securely and everlastingly enthroned at the Paradise center of all things and as the beneficent Father of all intelligent beings. There is but "one God and Father of all, who is above all and in all," "and he is before all things, and in him all things consist."

P.51 - §4 The uncertainties of life and the vicissitudes of existence do not in any manner contradict the concept of the universal sovereignty of God. All evolutionary creature life is beset by certain inevitabilities. Consider the following:

P.51 - §5 1. Is courage--strength of character--desirable? Then must man be reared in an environment which necessitates grappling with hardships and reacting to disappointments.

P.51 - §6 2. Is altruism--service of one's fellows--desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.

P.51 - §7 3. Is hope--the grandeur of trust--desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.

P.51 - §8 4. Is faith--the supreme assertion of human thought--desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

P.51 - §9 5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

P.51 - §10 6. Is idealism--the approaching concept of the divine--desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.

P.51 - §11 7. Is loyalty--devotion to highest duty--desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.

P.51 - §12 8. Is unselfishness--the spirit of self-forgetfulness--desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.

P.51 - §13 9. Is pleasure--the satisfaction of happiness--desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

It gives so much joy to how we all search for what is right. You all make my heart. "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your heart."
Quote:
P.1865 - §7 …Jesus' concept of the divine kingdom in the heart of the individual believer.
Thanks ya' all! :smile:

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No Sarah, we are not saying the same thing at all and the difference lies in your words:
Quote:
but since we are from God, the evil that comes from us can also be attributed to the original source of all, namely God Almighty.

Because God gave you free-will choice, he created the potential for you to create your own negativity by opting against his goodness. Until you do that, evil does not exist. You must take responsibility for your own choosing, God has nothing at all to do with it and therefore cannot accept your attribution as the source of it. You create your own evil by going against God's will. God's will has no room for evil. He is all goodness.

"Jesus said: "My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. Evil is the immature choosing and the unthinking misstep of those who are resistant to goodness, rejectful of beauty, and disloyal to truth. Evil is only the misadaptation of immaturity or the disruptive and distorting influence of ignorance. Evil is the inevitable darkness which follows upon the heels of the unwise rejection of light. Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.
Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life; but such errors of evil are really nonexistent until such a time as an intelligent creature wills their existence by mischoosing the way of life. And then are such evils later exalted into sin by the knowing and deliberate choice of such a willful and rebellious creature. This is why our Father in heaven permits the good and the evil to go along together until the end of life, just as nature allows the wheat and the tares to grow side by side until the harvest." 1429:01-02

iris


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I think I understand this verse better in the light of
Quote:
Your Father in heaven, by endowing you with the power to choose between truth and error, created the potential negative of the positive way of light and life

so "evil" is the result of choosing error over truth, and
Quote:
Evil is that which is dark and untrue, and which, when consciously embraced and willfully endorsed, becomes sin.

Ok...
KP


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Hello, ya'll~

The bible is an heavily edited collection of writings. Politicially motivated priestcraft perpetrated upon the people so as to control the masses. The scribes were corrupt. Most especially, Ezra.

My favorite words are the ones in red in the new testament. <these may even be genuine, who knows>These words say the Father is love - if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, even. Jesus said that. I believe that.

I reject the god of the olde testament as a false god. <A tribal diety gone global.> An angry, jealouse, vengeful, genocidal creation of men! In the image of men. Evil.

The only Word of God is the Son of God! Praise be unto the Lord Jesus Christ Michael who has shown us the Father's true character! God is Love.

Only Love is Real. Peace, Love, Light~
Julie

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Thank you for your response sojourner...

Although I do not feel this is the forum to discuss or debate whether or not the Bible is a
Quote:
Politicially motivated priestcraft perpetrated upon the people so as to control the masses

or not, I do respect your view.

Thanks

KP


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