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An open forum for general discussions of a spiritual nature where guests and readers entertain the teachings of The Urantia Book.
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Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:49 am +0000

Fatboy, I have bounced around from papers to papers too. I agree, 99% of us probably have. I have learned however that it can be a dangerous practice. It increases the potential to grossly distort reality. I am inclined however that it is possible that it is wiser to first urge strangers to the Fifth Revelation towards the Jesus papers as other papers can be too obtuse.

Everyone, I have also found further proof besides the lessons in the Trinity Teacher Sons that the UB papers isn't completely in the right order. This clue, however ironic, comes from the very first section of the foreword...

"we deem it wise to present in this initial statement an outline of the meanings to be attached to numerous English words which are to be employed in designation of Deity and certain associated concepts of the things, meanings, and values of universal reality.

"it is only a definitive guide designed to assist those who shall read the accompanying papers dealing with Deity and the universe of universes which have been formulated by an Orvonton commission sent to Urantia for this purpose"

Now, the universe of universes means the Master Universe and universal reality most likely means whats going on from a total, complete or infinite standpoint.

And to reiterate, the foreword is a guide for the specific papers dealing with Deity, infinite reality and the Master Universe. That also again agrees with the Trinity Teacher Sons section which states that the UB presentation was made to go from the infinite to the finite.

So... ladies and gentlemen, why are the papers on The Supreme Deity, numbers 115-117 after the papers on human evolution? And there are still more papers dealing with infinite reality after the papers on human evolution such as the paper entitled "Supreme and Ultimate" and "Deity and Reality."

Don't you think we should fix this before it causes more pain and suffering? Revelation is a mighty force, and if not treated properly can be disastrous. Personally, I have had many sorrowful experiences due to the instability caused by advanced truth and I believe others have as well. Doesn't it say in the UB that "there are never any gain in shortcuts"? Is it that hard to believe that the humans who published these papers may have slightly modified the order of the papers in order to make it apparently simpler to read? But in the long term, it is the opposite.

Let's change it!

Does anyone have the contact information on any of the UB trustees for the various organizations? Maybe it would be enough just to email them this thread. Take care everyone.
Last edited by Arie on Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:19 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:02 am +0000

Gerdean, I understand your contention that it is good to see it from both perspectives, from the infinite and to the finite and vice versa.

But it can be very dangerous to go from the finite to the infinite. I do not want to create some kind of taboo in reading parts of the UB out of place, I have done it, and I am still alive. lol BUT if someone is going to seriously study the UB, they should have the opportunity to study it correctly, and as of now, it isn't!

In fact, as a restatement, I think it is very possible that even part 4 is out of order, yes... all of the Jesus papers may not have been meant to be put back in the book. Just because it was given separately doesn't mean it should be placed in the back.

In regards to the reserve corp of destiny, I do find it fascinating as well, but I do not want to explore that concept in depth right now.
Take care Gerd :mrgreen:

It is broke! In form, not content... not even completely, just partially. :shock:

Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:09 am +0000

Arie, I hope to look at this more in depth at a later time. Right now I have to go to bed. To many hours at the PC.

God bless you Arie! :smile:

And bless us all! :smile:

Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:10 am +0000

Arie, you said

But it can be very dangerous to go from the finite to the infinite.

Yes, I realize that, based on what the Book itself says. What I meant to convey is that as mortals, looking up at the stars to ponder our place in the universe, offering "up" our prayers and supplications to a God in heaven, we manifest a perspective that cannot very well be ignored -- it is from the finite to the infinite, and we cannot overlook our own perspective. Thus, no matter in what order they are positioned or read, the Urantia Papers reflect the perspective of our spiritual superiors, and it is that perspective which will provide us the most insight into who we are, where we come from, and where we are going.

Taking care.

Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:29 pm +0000

I think that youngsters who talk about God, and then MTV, then Religion, then Disney World are going from the infinite to the finite and back again quite easily - with no problems.

This is a normal and simple thing. I do not understand the 'danger' thing.

I used to discuss infinity and God for 3 to 4 hours, and then discuss Scotch whiskey versus chablis. The UB is a similar experience - taken to a higher level. Our highest ! As Urantia creatures......

Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:59 pm +0000

Yes, I agree Gerdean. That is the scheme of our advancement. I was simply referring to the structure of studying the revelation.

Fatboy, yes... there is nothing wrong with that. Again, I was referring to the intent of the superhuman personalities in how we were to study the revelation.

Adios! :razz:

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:57 pm +0000

When the Contact Commission first began speaking to the revelators via the Sleeping Subject, some of the first questions, in fact I believe the very first questions they asked were “Who is God?”, “What is his name?” and “What is he like?” The first of their questions were actually supposed to be half-hearted jokes. The answer to question number one:

1:0.1 THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings…”

The answer to question number two was the next section of paper one entitled “1. The Father’s Name”

The answer to question three was Paper 2. At some point the Revelators encouraged the Contact commission to “Ask more intelligent questions.” The more they asked, the more they learned, and the revelators themselves actually encouraged them to ask questions about certain subjects. The Jesus papers were given to the Commission through the Sleeping Subject by the Midwayers. Before the Papers were set to be published William Sadler attempted to make a foreword explaining terms and concepts, to which the revelators offered to make one themselves. After it was finished, William Sadler consented that their version was far superior to his. Also, after some parts of the Papers were finished and the Commission read over them, they went back and asked more questions to shed some more light upon some things confused them. The Papers are not in the most correct order, but they are in the humanly understandable order. At least that is what i think

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:32 am +0000


I Concur with mr J.Barry '' If It Aint Broke Dont Fix It . Period . It Is What It IS . The Urantia Papers Are what they are . and Are ment to be as such as they were presented to mankind .

The only constant is change . But If you wish to change and rewrite the Urantia Papers , It would be a great dis service to mankind . A Major Error & Sin . Like Cal An the POD Denying TRUTH . Do they lead you in this Error ? ARIE ~ Do you see this CHANGE as your "personal liberty:" :?:

And U are allowed to be a Moderator here ?
The Lucifer Manifesto

p603:2 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:

p603:3 53:3. 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father.

p603:4 53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son—Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

p603:5 53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days—"foreign potentates"—to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights. p603:6 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

p604:1 53:3.6 3.The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

p604:2 53:3.7 And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.

In effect, Lucifer was denying the existence of God, and claiming for himself the loyalty and fealty that rightfully belongs to God. He was denigrating the eternal plans of the Universal Father to the beings for whom he was responsible as a sovereign and ambassador of the Eternal Father, essentially disenfranchising them from the reality of God and the chance to take part in the plan of eternal life. Lucifer's clarion call was "personal liberty:"

p604:3 53:4.1 The Lucifer manifesto was issued at the annual conclave of Satania on the sea of glass, in the presence of the assembled hosts of Jerusem, on the last day of the year, about two hundred thousand years ago, Urantia time. Satan proclaimed that worship could be accorded the universal forces—physical, intellectual, and spiritual—but that allegiance could be acknowledged only to the actual and present ruler, Lucifer, the "friend of men and angels" and the "God of liberty.''

Spare change jingles / Paper money folds .

Let those with Eyes See An Ears Hear .
Although I did read somewhere or a rumor about some missing printing
plate . As well as a Paper that has not been given , but will be hidden till
the year 20012 .
MR Natch

Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:53 am +0000

The Urantia Book is, among other things, a historical document produced in the early part of the 20th century; many of the place names, spellings and word usages of today will become archaic a hundred years hence just as there have been similar changes in them since its first printing. Neither Urantia Foundations subsequent printings nor the previous printings of Uversa Press have retained the inviolate text; both have altered it, sometimes reasonably but often arbitrarily, and as Dr. Sadler explained numerous times and as related below, the contact commission was given authorization to alter only capitalization, spelling, and punctuation (excerpt from a letter by Dr. Wm. Sadler, March 17, 1959 to Reverend Benjamin N. Adams):

"About the spelling of 'chazan'. Our mandate forbade us in anyway to alter the text of the manuscript, but gave us jurisdiction over capitalization, spelling, and punctuation. We were told to select our authority and stick to it. Evidently, the authority we chose spelled 'chazan' with one z."

The authorization given the contact commission for those minor changes does not extend to students of the book and certainly doesn't include changing words or phrases or the layout of the content. The text of the revelation (a revelation given when it was and in its exacting English for specific reasons) is intended to remain unaltered; inviolate; only that can provide the necessary stable base upon which annotated versions of the text could be produced as desired or required. We are expected to adapt our comprehension to the words that are used to express the concepts the book presents.

The main complaints from readers and non-readers of the book usually have to do with what is presumed to be a patriarchal tone of the language, about the discussions of the superior and inferior qualities of race, and about whether or not what is transpiring on a neighboring planet is of any consequence to us here on earth. These are usually discussed from the point of view that we mortals know better than the revelators what it is we want to be told and how we want it to be told to us with the supposition that if these apparent deficiencies in the text aren't corrected there is no hope that the revelation will ever appeal to the masses.

In order to be considered a student of The Urantia Book one has to have read the book in the manner in which is presented and is explained by the revelators. The book must be read sequentially more than once in order for one to assume to be an actual student of the revelation; anything less and one is simply an inquisitive reader and dabbler. The sequence of the Papers comprising the book is as much a revelation as are the concepts they contain and the manner in which they're presented.

Anyone considering that The Urantia Book is the fifth epochal revelation of truth to the world has to also recognize that such a declaration elevates the status of the text of this book to equal and above the preceding four epochal revelations. It's not just a book of interesting facts; it is a book of world transforming truths. The English used to produce this unprecedented result in a printed work is of the highest quality of any document in print. The revelators chose their words precisely and with reason that transcends human comprehension or thinking processes.

It is my conjecture that those who complain about the way the message is presented truly are unfamiliar with and simply do not understand the book yet. Is The Urantia Book too advanced? Sure, if you're not truly seeking truth. Should it be reorganized? Sure, if you believe that human intelligence is more intuitive than the divine. Should The Urantia Book be rewritten to smooth out the parts we don't like to hear? Of course if being politically correct is more valuable than facing reality — in that manner too one wouldn't have to take the uncomfortable stance of humbling ego by accepting the proposition that intelligence greater than one's own exists and directs.

It's my belief that the more intelligent a person is the more understanding and value they receive from their study of the book. In the beginning of Clyde Bedell's Concordex he explains that The Urantia Book is not written like any other work, it is more like a great work of music, a symphony with an overall intended impact embracing strains and themes which are woven throughout, simple melodies that build and diminish all contributing to the development and presentation of the masterwork. Some people like hearing just the melody clips from Beethoven's Fifth Symphony or just the arias from an opera; others will listen to a major work one time and be satisfied, and still others make these works a part of their soul and being by immersing themselves in the glory over and over again. What kind of music lover are you?

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:13 pm +0000

Gee, "Mr. Natural" seems very familiar. Burgo comes to mind or someone of like mind. He even writes like Burgo. I know there are a few on this forum who have multiple personalities.

It's absurdly obvious the "MR. Natch" hasn't even read the whole thread. Maybe next time you should actually read the thread before you try to associate someone with the Lucifer Rebellion. I have reiterated a number of times that I am doubting the 100% accuracy of the order of the papers, not the content.

"Nothing humans hands have touched can be considered infallible." -Jesus

Lwatkins, you are assuming that they published it correctly. Do you really want to blindly accept the publication of the commissioners without question?

Again, like I have said, I believe they may have 'slightly modified' the order of the papers. I do believe in general the papers are correct.

BUT NOT ONE person has given me a satisfactory answer as to why the papers on Supreme DEITY are after the papers on human evolution.

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:26 pm +0000

2 follow 1 because it takes a 1 and a 1 to make a 2

But the papers dont have to follow one and another to make the other compleet or whole .....it is a work of art to me I accept it as it is...

If you in your wisdom see that they should follow a spacifice order because it makes better since to you ...that is great ....but it is not a fact of need..

You say Tomato I say Tomatto... I think we all get it either way. Do you want some one to agree with you so you can be validated?

I need that from time to time .... But in this I have to say It works for me...and you may be right...... but I don't seem to mined
Stay True To The Journey

Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:04 am +0000

Actually it is a "fact of need". If you even read this whole thread you would have read the quotes in The Trinity Teacher Sons section which states that the UB was meant to go from Deity to human, from Infinite Reality to finite. In fact, it says that if we go from the human to the Deity papers, we will experience a form of genetic knowledge, but not spiritual wisdom. So it says so from the source, from your beloved book J. Barry.

And I don't need validation Mr Barry, if you actually read the thread you would have seen that I've been promoting that we change the order of the papers to put the Supreme papers in the front as well as the paper on Deity and Reality and Universe Levels of Reality.

Maybe before you criticize another person, you should read the whole thread instead of being so impetuous like "Mr. Natural."

19:1.5 For example: The human mind would ordinarily crave to approach the cosmic philosophy portrayed in these revelations by proceeding from the simple and the finite to the complex and the infinite, from human origins to divine destinies. But that path does not lead to spiritual wisdom. Such a procedure is the easiest path to a certain form of genetic knowledge, but at best it can only reveal man's origin; it reveals little or nothing about his divine destiny.

19:1.6 Even in the study of man's biologic evolution on Urantia, there are grave objections to the exclusive historic approach to his present-day status and his current problems. The true perspective of any reality problem -- human or divine, terrestrial or cosmic -- can be had only by the full and unprejudiced study and correlation of three phases of universe reality: origin, history, and destiny. The proper understanding of these three experiential realities affords the basis for a wise estimate of the current status.

19:1.7 When the human mind undertakes to follow the philosophic technique of starting from the lower to approach the higher, whether in biology or theology, it is always in danger of committing four errors of reasoning:

19:1.8 1. It may utterly fail to perceive the final and completed evolutionary goal of either personal attainment or cosmic destiny.

19:1.9 2. It may commit the supreme philosophical blunder by oversimplifying cosmic evolutionary (experiential) reality, thus leading to the distortion of facts, to the perversion of truth, and to the misconception of destinies.

19:1.10 3. The study of causation is the perusal of history. But the knowledge of how a being becomes does not necessarily provide an intelligent understanding of the present status and true character of such a being.

19:1.11 4. History alone fails adequately to reveal future development -- destiny. Finite origins are helpful, but only divine causes reveal final effects. Eternal ends are not shown in time beginnings. The present can be truly interpreted only in the light of the correlated past and future.

19:1.12 Therefore, because of these and for still other reasons, do we employ the technique of approaching man and his planetary problems by embarkation on the time-space journey from the infinite, eternal, and divine Paradise Source and Center of all personality reality and all cosmic existence.

PS- This is my last post, I have lost the desire to show people on this thread the truth which I have seen. Make of it what you will. I plan on publishing my own UB anyways in the future. We should all appreciate our judicial system. God Bless.

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:35 am +0000

often i have argued that the holy bible is naught but an heavily edited collection of writings. more the words of men than the word of god.

the bible has been added to, taken away from: perverted- priestcraft perpetrated upon the people, even. there is an inherent danger in setting a 'precedent.' please consider undesired ramifications of well intended actions. (i personally would like to see the word 'urantia' translated to the word 'earth')

the more that the hands of men touch and alter a thing, the more room there is for error. and the more other men will feel free to make their own changes each to suit his own purpose. please, for the love of the father - do not mess with the ub !

love & blessings to you all. and merry christmas.

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:50 am +0000

If you would choose to read the Papers again, from the beginning to the end in the order presented, the answer just might emerge.
BUT NOT ONE person has given me a satisfactory answer as to why the papers on Supreme DEITY are after the papers on human evolution.

It might just have something to do with the evolutionary nature of the Supreme Being. Parallels? Catering to the human urge to view things backwards? The result of wisdom of a higher order?

Oh heck, go write your own UB. That process will force you to read it again.
Faith son

Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:08 am +0000

by Clyde Bedell [April 1981]
Cover Letter

The following nine lines are quoted from p. 1917, last 5 words; 1918A.

"WHAT a sorry sight for successive generations of the professional followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth:

'Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.'

But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning." (Midwayer Commission, 1917D, 1918A)
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