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An open forum for general discussions of a spiritual nature where guests and readers entertain the teachings of The Urantia Book.
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Urantia Book Reorganization

Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:43 pm +0000

Has anyone else come to the conclusion that the order of the UB papers is not entirely correct?

From Paper 19, Section 1... "The human mind would ordinarily crave to approach the cosmic philosophy portrayed in these revelations by proceeding from the simple and the finite to the complex and the infinite, from human origins to divine destinies. But that path does not lead to spiritual wisdom."

"Therefore, because of these and for still other reasons, do we employ the technique of approaching man and his planetary problems by embarkation on the time-space journey from the infinite, eternal, and divine Paradise Source and Center of all personality reality and all cosmic existence."

I highly doubt these celestial personalities failed to present us with this revelation in a unified and consistent way. I think we may have arbitrarily changed the order in an attempt to increase palatability. For example, look at the papers 115 to 118. These are perhaps the most complex papers in the UB but they are put way in the back even after the papers on human evolution.

I am not even certain all the Jesus papers should be all the way in the back. Hear this from Paper 2... "If the incarnated life of Michael is taken as the background of the revelation of God to man, we may attempt to put in human word symbols certain ideas and ideals concerning the divine nature which may possibly contribute to a further illumination and unification of the human concept of the nature and the character of the personality of the Universal Father."

If that is true, then shouldn't the Jesus papers be closer to the papers on Deity personalities? The Jesus papers aren't even closely associated with the paper on Paradise Creator Sons.

Look here as well from paper 20... "As they function in the superuniverse of Orvonton, the Sons of God are classified under three general heads:
1. The Descending Sons of God.
2. The Ascending Sons of God.
3. The Trinitized Sons of God.

And these three papers of the Paradise Sons of God are not even sequential in order, they go from paper 20 to 40 to 22. What do you guys think?

Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:22 am +0000

Hi Arie,
Maybe when Sadler was traveling from his office to the typesetters office he dropped the stack of papers and tried to rearrange them as best he could.

All kidding aside, there are some consistencies that have been pointed out over the years, most likely due to Sadler or his assistant "Chrissy" trying to take on an editorial role of sorting the papers.

I also learned that the "Jesus Papers" appeared as a bonus after the first three Parts were complete. The Jesus Papers', which were not apart of the Forum's Q&A sessions, and were delivered to Sadler in full, almost as an afterthought, which would explain your point of Jesus's life not being detailed in the "Son's of God" section of the book, but appearing later as a complete section.

Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:09 pm +0000

Jim, I think it is very possible that all of the Jesus papers should be before the papers on human evolution. Look at the very last Jesus papers on religion. It would make sense that all the papers presented by Melchizedek having to do with religion would be after those but they are presented beforehand. It is also hard for me to imagine that they gave us the papers on Jesus's life as an afterthought when elsewhere in the UB they talk about the importance of understanding his life on Urantia in order to have the best revelation of the Universal Father. Thoughts?

Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:20 am +0000


The Papers are in the proper order. Nobody dropped the pile and mixed them up. Continued perusal of the Papers in the order presented will eventually lead one to appreciate the superior intelligence of the revelators.

Remember how your parents became less 'stupid" as you matured.
So too the revelation.
Faith son

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:51 am +0000

The Jesus papers came all at one time. The other papers which came over a long period of time were the result of focus group- question, answer, editing etc. The first 3/4 of the book was a revelation based in part on what our finite minds wanted to know about and what they had intended to tell us; revelation must always keep in touch with the previous, distorted, imperfect. Intermediate facts may appear incongruent however they may appear in the order of answers to our questions throughout the proses as the forum evolved in understanding of the material.

The Jesus papers were a restatement of what we already had available to us in the scriptures. Part four was prepared by the midwayer's and given to us as a complete work. That's the reason for the apparent disorderliness.

The revelators appear to start with what's real and then work their way down to what's relative.


Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:33 am +0000

Jim, Coulter, Arie and Bill, Greetings my friends. God's Peace be with you.
Remember how your parents became less 'stupid" as you matured.

LOL! That was great Bill! How ya doin'?
Arie I remember something like from before. remember these threads:
Knowledge of the UB

Starting at the beginning I found it annoying. I actually shelved TUB for two years after my first look at it. But wanting and searching for more information about Jesus. Part IV was the most fulfilling story of Jesus I have ever read. I would recommend Part IV 1st. Then Part III, Then Part II and finally Part I. I find in that order, it's a journey in understanding from where we are here on earth, through the cosmos to the most complete understanding of the aspects and personalities and essence of God to date.

But if you start at the beginning it's so new and strange and unusual that I was put off by it before I really get anywhere. I implore you in the old blue book to start on page 1344 at the Birth of Christ. Give you self a chance to enjoy the book. In the new book what ever paper has The Birth of Christ in it.

If you start the other way, it's like starting at a level of God as God is understood by the highest beings in creation and traversing an understanding of the cosmos that we don't have yet, back down through the physical and cultural evolution of our local universe, star systems, planets, worlds, on down to where we are today as humankind.

So try it the other way, from IV to I it's an easier journey. I originally liked PartIV the best. But now like Jorge said I like all of it the best except maybe still Part I. It seems like I’m way below the spiritual understanding to enjoy it the way I think I will a half of eternity from now!

Newcomers discussion questions and answers


Coulter said:
Glad you found us. When people first read the UB I usually sagest that they start at part 4 the Jesus papers. The first 3 sections of the book can be heavy going with the introduction of so much cosmic material that some first timers give up. Christians having a basic understanding of the incarnation story can readily identify with the story of Jesus.

Arc said:
Still, I agree with Colter, Part Four is an excellent place to start.

Bro Dave said:
As for beginning with part four, yes indeed, you will probably be most at home there.

Joer said:
Nice to see you here. I agree with Colter. Part IV is the place to start. It was the most familiar for me

RayOk said:
I also began with Part IV. It is a joy to read this section from beginning to end.

Then Georgie said:
Will do WLM and thank you for the advice peoples.

Read the parts backwards! Now that's novel Okay, back to it then.

Now I remember Bill, Larry, Woody I think and the Gray Ghost and others insisting it should be read in the order presented in the book. I believe they are right. The way the revelators presented it is O.K.

BUT I find it interesting that Part IV was just dropped in at the last minute. It didn't undergo the scrutiny and revisions the other parts did. SO we got part four JUST AS THE REVELATORS presented it to us WITHOUT our influence. Did they have a reason for doing this way? Maybe they knew as backwards as we are we would read it that way? BUT they also knew the way it was presented was even more important. I LIKE the order that it is in so that if your read from back to front it's a journey from here to GOD and if you read it from Front to back it's a journey from God to us. Either way we get it! It's like a circle - no beginning and no end. No matter which way you go you come by us and you come by God. We're all connected.

I think they knew what they were doing. they knew there were people like Bill Larry Woody and the Ghost and people like Arie, Arc, Coulter Ray and myself. Either way we are all satisfied with truth we get from it regardless of order.

BTW Jim, How did you read it? How would you suggest it be read? I'm just so glad I finally read it. And if it wasn't for the Jesus Part, I never would've read the rest.

Thank You Revelators! God Bless You. :smile: Oh Yes I forgot.

Arie, as far as your more specific question of the order of presentation of specific concepts like the SONS. I've never really thought about that much. Except that I did notice that certain concepts are repeated or elaborated upon in different parts of the book. So you might see how a concept related to the highest level of divinity in Part I, to other levels and beings in the cosmos in Part two, to our area of the universe and on earth and beings within that area in Part 3 and how it was presented to us by Jesus in Part 4.

So an idea would maintain consistency, be expressed and hold different meanings in different areas or to different orders of being and also be related to us. For me that technique helped me "see" more clearly how we're all related to everything else under and within the magnificent and infinite being of God. WOW! Thank you Lord! :smile:

God Bless you my friends. I'm blessed by your thoughts, sharing and interaction. You fulfill and complete me! :smile: Thank You!

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:16 pm +0000

To answer your question, I started from the very beginning of the Book, and after my mind had a few months to get used to the concepts, then proceeded with the History section, bouncing back and fourth to the subjects that interested me first.

Finally, and over a period of about 6 months, I read it from cover to cover. It was my "forty days in the desert" so to speak.

I often recommend to new readers to read what interests them most, then, when ready, start from the beginning.

You so eloquently stated it correctly, when you read from front to back, its the complex to the simple, and vice versa. The Revelators were brilliant in the way they assembled the Papers

I don't really think Sadler dropped the pages and tried to reasemble them. It was a bad attempt at humor.

In its final form, I do believe the Book is how it was intended.

I commend those who replied to this discussion. Very good perspectives indeed.

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:26 am +0000

Hello everyone. It's two in the morning here in Virginia and I felt like posting on truthbook and felt drawn again to this post. I reread all or your replies, and I'm not sure if any of you understand the significance of what I've said. I don't say it to sound egotistical, but I do think it is important to study the UB in a specific way. There must be a unified and harmonious order of the Fifth Revelation.

Okay, so they had a question and answer arena, but everyone, reading the UB, do you really think the whole book was in this question and answer format outside of the Jesus papers when you look at the quality and depth of the UB? Most of their questions would of sounded childish to these higher personalities. If I was in their group I would have contributed with silly questions.

Like I said earlier, look at papers 115-118 and 105-106. These could very well be the most complex papers in the whole UB. How did they get all the way back there after the relatively simple papers on human evolution?

You know, I don't bring this up to cast doubt on the content of the UB, because I have not found any to doubt. I am only casting doubt on the order of the papers. And I do not think of it as being outlandish that a fellow human or two could have rearranged the order of the Fifth Revelation to a certain extent.

I say a certain extent because I am fully assured that some parts of the UB are correct in order. Just not all. Don't you all ever wonder why it is so difficult to study the Urantia Book? Why so many people don't really seem to have a harmonious grasp of the book? Maybe most people stumble on gaining a deep and thorough grasp of the UB because the papers are not in the correct order!

I'm telling you all, look at papers 105-106 and 115-118. And after looking at those papers, can you not tell me that those papers look like they should be studied in close association with the foreword? MANY of the complex topics presented in the foreword are expanded upon in these papers in the VERY BACK OF THE BOOK. Maybe if we all realized that the humans who undertook to publish this revelation were mortals indeed we would be more keen on evaluating HOW they published it.

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:53 am +0000

Arie, Where would you put them? For example since you say they have something to do with the forward would you make 105-106 and 115-118 papers 1-7 right after the Forward?

Just curious what order you think is right. :smile:

It might be worth while to read them in the order you suggest to compare them to order they are currently in and see how it feels both ways.

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:51 pm +0000

I always felt the papers on the Supreme were out of place, that they came way too late. Not too late for me, because I wasn't able to "get it" for about 20 years. But late in the Book, because it was suddenly a brain strain, it seemed, after having a great time waltzing around with my new spiritual consciousness, thanks to the Religion Papers (99-103) and the Adjuster Papers 107-112).

It almost seems that 104-106, on Trinity and Reality, and those heavy-weight papers 115-118, should have been in Part I (The Central and Superuniverses), instead of Part III (The History of Urantia), but perhaps they did it this way because it really is a crecendo towards the end of the original Three Part harmony ... since we know the Life and Times of Jesus was prepared separately yet appended as part of the entire revelatory document.

It was an editorial decision, no doubt, to add the Bestowal Papers at the end of the first three Parts so as to lead into the appended Papers 120-196). But if they had put those heavy papers in Part I, and ended Part III with Seraphic Planetary Government, they would have closed their revelation with "The Reserve Corps of Destiny" which might not have been a good idea -- too suggestive.

But all this is purely speculative since I am not part of the revelatory commission and I was not there when the Book was being produced.

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:48 pm +0000

Hey Joer,

I can't give you a definitive answer on that. It is really difficult to try to consciously figure out which paper goes before what and so on. Even though there are 'some' clues as to how the papers should be ordered, common sense is going to have to provide the rest. Again, I do not think the order is completely wrong. BUT, to give you a hint as to what I think, I am fairly certain that "Deity and Reality" should be the first paper after the foreword, then "Supreme and Ultimate," then "Universe Levels of Reality." I can't give you a certain guarantee on that, my mind tends to swing from certainty to doubt in the process of evaluating the order of the UB papers. It was only in the past few weeks whereupon I have started to doubt the complete accuracy of the order of the Papers.

Whats up Gerdean,

What do you mean by "too suggestive" of a paper? I ask because I am not familiar with that paper. Also, I find it interesting that you had one of those experiences also, that feeling that the order may not be correct. Gerdean, have you read the admonition in the Trinity Teacher Sons section? The author specifically states that the UB was presented as going from the Deity personalities down to the finite and simple which would agree with your intuition that the Supreme papers and other papers on Infinite reality are out of place.

Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:17 pm +0000

Hi Arie. You mean this part?
For example: The human mind would ordinarily crave to approach the cosmic philosophy portrayed in these revelations by proceeding from the simple and the finite to the complex and the infinite, from human origins to divine destinies. But that path does not lead to spiritual wisdom. Such a procedure is the easiest path to a certain form of genetic knowledge, but at best it can only reveal man's origin; it reveals little or nothing about his divine destiny.

Even in the study of man's biologic evolution on Urantia, there are grave objections to the exclusive historic approach to his present-day status and his current problems. The true perspective of any reality problem--human or divine, terrestrial or cosmic--can be had only by the full and unprejudiced study and correlation of three phases of universe reality: origin, history, and destiny. The proper understanding of these three experiential realities affords the basis for a wise estimate of the current status.

When the human mind undertakes to follow the philosophic technique of starting from the lower to approach the higher, whether in biology or theology, it is always in danger of committing four errors of reasoning:

1. It may utterly fail to perceive the final and completed evolutionary goal of either personal attainment or cosmic destiny.

2. It may commit the supreme philosophical blunder by oversimplifying cosmic evolutionary (experiential) reality, thus leading to the distortion of facts, to the perversion of truth, and to the misconception of destinies.

3. The study of causation is the perusal of history. But the knowledge of how a being becomes does not necessarily provide an intelligent understanding of the present status and true character of such a being.

4. History alone fails adequately to reveal future development--destiny. Finite origins are helpful, but only divine causes reveal final effects. Eternal ends are not shown in time beginnings. The present can be truly interpreted only in the light of the correlated past and future.

Therefore, because of these and for still other reasons, do we employ the technique of approaching man and his planetary problems by embarkation on the time-space journey from the infinite, eternal, and divine Paradise Source and Center of all personality reality and all cosmic existence. P.215 - §2 - §9

Yes, I've read that. Actually, if we are to appreciate as full a spectrum as possible, it behooves us to see it from both directions and, thanks to the revelator's perspective, we can do that.

But as to the section on "The Reserve Corps of Destiny" ... that is one of the most thrilling sections of all - to me, anyway. It would be the last segment in the Book, if those heavy papers on the Supreme were moved to Part I as you suggested, and were it not for the Bestowal Paper which leads into the appended Part IV, The Life and Teachings of Jesus.

Paper 114 entitled "Seraphic Planetary Government" discusses how it is that the Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men. After a thorough review of the administrative structure from the top down, with Michael being proclaimed Planetary Prince after the downfall of Prince Caligastia, then Machiventa Melchizedek serving as Vicegerent for Michael; hierarchy descends down through the Board of Planetary Supervisors; the Resident Governor General; The Most High Observer; the Planetary Government administration; Master Seraphim of Planetary Supervision, which includes the twelve groups of angels (master seraphim, i.e., the progress angels, the angels of races, angels of nation life, angels of health, industry, diversion, etc.); and "culminates" with the Reserve Corps of Destiny, which "consists of living men and women who ... well, it's pretty clear that we are being invited to participate. Here is the complete segment, very intriguing, most fascinating:

The reserve corps of destiny consists of living men and women who have been admitted to the special service of the superhuman administration of world affairs. This corps is made up of the men and women of each generation who are chosen by the spirit directors of the realm to assist in the conduct of the ministry of mercy and wisdom to the children of time on the evolutionary worlds. It is the general practice in the conduct of the affairs of the ascension plans to begin this liaison utilization of mortal will creatures immediately they are competent and trustworthy to assume such responsibilities. Accordingly, as soon as men and women appear on the stage of temporal action with sufficient mental capacity, adequate moral status, and requisite spirituality, they are quickly assigned to the appropriate celestial group of planetary personalities as human liaisons, mortal assistants.

When human beings are chosen as protectors of planetary destiny, when they become pivotal individuals in the plans which the world administrators are prosecuting, at that time the planetary chief of seraphim confirms their temporal attachment to the seraphic corps and appoints personal destiny guardians to serve with these mortal reservists. All reservists have self-conscious Adjusters, and most of them function in the higher cosmic circles of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment.

Mortals of the realm are chosen for service in the reserve corps of destiny on the inhabited worlds because of:

1. Special capacity for being secretly rehearsed for numerous possible emergency missions in the conduct of various activities of world affairs.

2. Wholehearted dedication to some special social, economic, political, spiritual, or other cause, coupled with willingness to serve without human recognition and rewards.

3. The possession of a Thought Adjuster of extraordinary versatility and probable pre-Urantia experience in coping with planetary difficulties and contending with impending world emergency situations.

Each division of planetary celestial service is entitled to a liaison corps of these mortals of destiny standing. The average inhabited world employs seventy separate corps of destiny, which are intimately connected with the superhuman current conduct of world affairs. On Urantia there are twelve reserve corps of destiny, one for each of the planetary groups of seraphic supervision.

The twelve groups of Urantia destiny reservists are composed of mortal inhabitants of the sphere who have been rehearsed for numerous crucial positions on earth and are held in readiness to act in possible planetary emergencies. This combined corps now consists of 962 persons. The smallest corps numbers 41 and the largest 172. With the exception of less than a score of contact personalities, the members of this unique group are wholly unconscious of their preparation for possible function in certain planetary crises. These mortal reservists are chosen by the corps to which they are respectively attached and are likewise trained and rehearsed in the deep mind by the combined technique of Thought Adjuster and seraphic guardian ministry. Many times numerous other celestial personalities participate in this unconscious training, and in all this special preparation the midwayers perform valuable and indispensable services.

On many worlds the better adapted secondary midway creatures are able to attain varying degrees of contact with the Thought Adjusters of certain favorably constituted mortals through the skillful penetration of the minds of the latters' indwelling. (And it was by just such a fortuitous combination of cosmic adjustments that these revelations were materialized in the English language on Urantia.) Such potential contact mortals of the evolutionary worlds are mobilized in the numerous reserve corps, and it is, to a certain extent, through these small groups of forward-looking personalities that spiritual civilization is advanced and the Most Highs are able to rule in the kingdoms of men. The men and women of these reserve corps of destiny thus have various degrees of contact with their Adjusters through the intervening ministry of the midway creatures; but these same mortals are little known to their fellows except in those rare social emergencies and spiritual exigencies wherein these reserve personalities function for the prevention of the breakdown of evolutionary culture or the extinction of the light of living truth. On Urantia these reservists of destiny have seldom been emblazoned on the pages of human history.

The reservists unconsciously act as conservators of essential planetary information. Many times, upon the death of a reservist, a transfer of certain vital data from the mind of the dying reservist to a younger successor is made by a liaison of the two Thought Adjusters. The Adjusters undoubtedly function in many other ways unknown to us, in connection with these reserve corps.

On Urantia the reserve corps of destiny, though having no permanent head, does have its own permanent councils which constitute its governing organization. These embrace the judiciary council, the historicity council, the council on political sovereignty, and many others. From time to time, in accordance with the corps organization, titular (mortal) heads of the whole reserve corps have been commissioned by these permanent councils for specific function. The tenure of such reservist chiefs is usually a matter of a few hours' duration, being limited to the accomplishment of some specific task at hand.

The Urantia reserve corps had its largest membership in the days of the Adamites and Andites, steadily declining with the dilution of the violet blood and reaching its low point around the time of Pentecost, since which time reserve corps membership has steadily increased.

(The cosmic reserve corps of universe-conscious citizens on Urantia now numbers over one thousand mortals whose insight of cosmic citizenship far transcends the sphere of their terrestrial abode, but I am forbidden to reveal the real nature of the function of this unique group of living human beings.)

Urantia mortals should not allow the comparative spiritual isolation of their world from certain of the local universe circuits to produce a feeling of cosmic desertion or planetary orphanage. There is operative on the planet a very definite and effective superhuman supervision of world affairs and human destinies.

But it is true that you can have, at best, only a meager idea of an ideal planetary government. Since the early times of the Planetary Prince, Urantia has suffered from the miscarriage of the divine plan of world growth and racial development. The loyal inhabited worlds of Satania are not governed as is Urantia. Nevertheless, compared with the other isolated worlds, your planetary governments have not been so inferior; only one or two worlds may be said to be worse, and a few may be slightly better, but the majority are on a plane of equality with you.

No one in the local universe seems to know when the unsettled status of the planetary administration will terminate. The Nebadon Melchizedeks are inclined to the opinion that little change will occur in the planetary government and administration until Michael's second personal arrival on Urantia. Undoubtedly at this time, if not before, sweeping changes will be effected in planetary management. But as to the nature of such modifications of world administration, no one seems to be able even to conjecture. There is no precedent for such an episode in all the history of the inhabited worlds of the universe of Nebadon. Among the many things difficult to understand concerning the future government of Urantia, a prominent one is the location on the planet of a circuit and divisional headquarters of the archangels.

Your isolated world is not forgotten in the counsels of the universe. Urantia is not a cosmic orphan stigmatized by sin and shut away from divine watchcare by rebellion. From Uversa to Salvington and on down to Jerusem, even in Havona and on Paradise, they all know we are here; and you mortals now dwelling on Urantia are just as lovingly cherished and just as faithfully watched over as if the sphere had never been betrayed by a faithless Planetary Prince, even more so. It is eternally true, "the Father himself loves you." P.1257 - §1 - P.1259 - §2

Now, as far as I'm concerned, it is an ideal spot to end Part III, and indeed, to end the fifth epochal revelation (except for the inclusion of the Jesus Papers) because it does indeed bring it right on home, places the onus squarely in our laps as to whether we are cut out to serve in the reserve corps. It is a huge and wondrous challenge to ponder that we would have the right stuff to be (1) "secretly rehearsed for numerous possible emergency missions"; (2) dedicated to some special social, economic, plitical, spiritual, or other cause, coupled with willingness to serve without human recognition and rewards; and/or (3) possessor of a Thought Adjuster of extraordinary versatility and probable pre-Urantia experience in coping with planetary difficulties and contending with impending world emergency situations.

On one hand, the challenge to us is inspiring, to even think that we could participate in the unfoldment and superhuman administration of Urantia affairs, but it also could instigate such a rash of messianic zeal as to bring about a spurt of fanaticism that could prove to be more detrimental than a slow plod, as is pointed out in Paper 39 from Part II on The Seraphic Hosts, Section 4. Administrator Seraphim, No. 4 Quickeners of Morality:

These seraphim teach the fruitfulness of patience: That stagnation is certain death, but that overrapid growth is equally suicidal; that as a drop of water from a higher level falls to a lower and, flowing onward, passes ever downward through a succession of short falls, so ever upward is progress in the morontia and spirit worlds--and just as slowly and by just such gradual stages. P.435 - §5

Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:47 pm +0000

LOL LOL If it an't broke don't fix it.. LOL LOL

Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:25 pm +0000

The UB works for me, JB, no matter what order the Papers are in, but this has been an interesting discussion.

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:53 am +0000

I think many of us "bounce around" in our UB studies - and that is normal and good. For me, Part One is the BIG BIG BIG Picture - the biggest panorama we can get.

Part Two is the BIG BIG Picture (Local Universe).

Part Three is the BIG Picture - the story of our Earth, of our evolution.

Part Three is the Jesus Papers, a clarification of Real Values.
............. I like the order. However, many of you jumped to the Jesus Papers (most important?). I jumped to Part Three....... I like starting with the Beginning of Urantian life.
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