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Riktare wrote:
For me, some of the information in TUB relating to science and history is powerful intellectual support of its authority. At the time the book was first printed, many things the authors state were either unknown to any scientist or conflict strongly with the understanding of the times. I'd have to say that at least 90% of all scientists, at least publicly, stick to the "party line" or consensus view, regardless of how poorly that consensus view fits reality. Maybe you know the saying "Science advances one funeral at a time"?


When you've come from an extreme Christian fundamentalism background, you tend to become suspicious of religion based facts/evidence. Remember all those pictures of chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea? (which "proved Moses parted the red sea"). Or how about remnants of Noah's ark? :lol: This again is the paradox for my friend, he wants something tangible, but his prior delusions makes him overly cautious.

For me right now, I'm putting this issue on the shelf. I don't feel there's anything I can do. The illustration of the farmer sowing seeds comes to mind (i.e. don't concern yourself with things out of your control). Apart from lack of success I'd have, and short of being a professional scientist/philosopher, going deeply into this analytical side is making me depressed! Why should I feed my mind upon things that feel insulting and bankrupting to the soul/spirit? Bottom line, I have no obligation to force others by the power of sheer logic, and neither is it beneficial to express my faith towards a skeptic (as much as I care for him).

Guess I've always felt this way, but still needed to voice it and get it off my chest :smile:


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One of the most important teachings to me is that I am not respinsible for saving souls from damnation and eternal suffering. I had already rejected that superstitious myth of hell from my fundamentalist youth. But the joy and relief of learning the depth of the Divine paternal affection and mercy and patience was so assuring.

Certainly it did not relieve me of my own loyalties and duties and potentials related to my spiritization and perfecting adventure. But the UB certainly reiterates the Jesusonian Gospel of God's love in powerful and rational ways that lets me also believe in the ministry of the seed sower. My responsibility is to live in the Spirit and share those fruits the vine brings forth.

Each must choose their way and each is given ample opportunity to so choose. And God reaches forth and touches all in ways I do not understand but should not limit by my own understanding either. All are given the time and light to find God I think.


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True! I went from a "soul saving" mission as a Jehovah's Witness to being so excited about having found the UB that I just had to share. It's just a shame when the feeling isn't mutual because you want the same life changing experience for those closest to you.

I've accepted that for my wife too who doesn't accept the UB, it's not something I feel must be forced. Her life experience and discovery is just as valid as a UB students. The hardest emotion is the feeling of isolation, not sharing the same experience. However, it's an adaptive process, all part of the journey and only a drop in the ocean!


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BrotherP wrote:
True! I went from a "soul saving" mission as a Jehovah's Witness to being so excited about having found the UB that I just had to share. It's just a shame when the feeling isn't mutual because you want the same life changing experience for those closest to you.

I've accepted that for my wife too who doesn't accept the UB, it's not something I feel must be forced. Her life experience and discovery is just as valid as a UB students. The hardest emotion is the feeling of isolation, not sharing the same experience. However, it's an adaptive process, all part of the journey and only a drop in the ocean!


Agreed. God loves the unique experience and expressions of life we each have and share with others! Variety creates rich harmonies and tapestries of truth, beauty, and goodness.

A great lesson and fine example of a marvelous and effective technique was demonstrated by Jesus so many times. Use the symbols and language of other religionists and believers to share the excitement of the religious life and universe reality!! I converse with many Baptists and fellow Bible thumpers in their language and in their scripture because of my own familiarity. The Jesusonian Gospel is smack dab in the middle of the Bible!! It is interesting, to me, to "help" Christians face the conflicts between creedal dogma and the Gospel within the same book.

When Paul and the OT contradicts Jesus what's a Christian to do? Is it an eye for an eye or turn the other cheek? And where did those wives from Nod come from? A bigoted Christian defies the story of the Good Samaritan.

Jesus used that which was held in common to witness and to share the Spirit...we must do the same. We can't allow vocabulary and symbols to interfere with fellowship! We are advised to associate with a wide spectrum of believers and beliefs....for our own benefit. The burden is upon those with a less rigid and narrow perspective to allow for those burdened by such limitations I think.



100:0.1 (1094.1) THE experience of dynamic religious living transforms the mediocre individual into a personality of idealistic power. Religion ministers to the progress of all through fostering the progress of each individual, and the progress of each is augmented through the achievement of all.

100:0.2 (1094.2) Spiritual growth is mutually stimulated by intimate association with other religionists. Love supplies the soil for religious growth—an objective lure in the place of subjective gratification—yet it yields the supreme subjective satisfaction. And religion ennobles the commonplace drudgery of daily living.



8)


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I apologize up-front if this seems to be off-topic...

Why doesn't one of Urantia's secondary midwayers show up for an interview with a famous TV or youtube interviewer, and during the interview move in and out of visible awareness, move some things around while invisible, and talk about the UB ?

On normal, non-rebellion planets, there are Material Sons and Daughters, a Prince's staff, and other physical evidences of the reality of super-mortal beings. Why not here on Urantia ?

I recall reading in the UB somewhere (does anyone know where that is ?) that such a demonstration would be an affront to our free will.
Can anyone explain how this would offend free will ?


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Well, for one thing, that would nullify our status as agondonters, being “an evolutionary will creature that believes without seeing, perseveres when isolated, and triumphs over insuperable difficulties even when alone”.

Agondonters are given special assignments during our ascension careers, due to our unquestioned faith. See “The Rewards of Isolation” in paper 50 for more information.


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tlhall wrote:
I apologize up-front if this seems to be off-topic...

Why doesn't one of Urantia's secondary midwayers show up for an interview with a famous TV or youtube interviewer, and during the interview move in and out of visible awareness, move some things around while invisible, and talk about the UB ?

On normal, non-rebellion planets, there are Material Sons and Daughters, a Prince's staff, and other physical evidences of the reality of super-mortal beings. Why not here on Urantia ?

I recall reading in the UB somewhere (does anyone know where that is ?) that such a demonstration would be an affront to our free will.
Can anyone explain how this would offend free will ?


Can you imagine the chaos such a demonstration would produce? Really, our world is not ready for it. Do you truly think this would satisfy non-believers? Is that what it would take to satisfy you?

Celestials are here now, working quietly or invisibly trying to help direct the minds of all men and women, but with total respect and regard for our freedom of choice. The rewards of faith would have little value if we need miracles to posses it.


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I'm still having difficulty understanding the connection between working quietly and invisibly and respecting free will.
I don't mean to cast aspersions, but that's exactly the way spies and pick-pockets violate people's free will.


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tlhall wrote:
I'm still having difficulty understanding the connection between working quietly and invisibly and respecting free will.
I don't mean to cast aspersions, but that's exactly the way spies and pick-pockets violate people's free will.


Perhaps you are confusing freewill and privacy?? There is no privacy really. Reflectivity, God Fragment, Guardian Angels, Midwayers, etc., are just a few witnesses to our deeds and our thoughts. God knows all. Nothing can be hidden. What has that to do with freewill? Likewise do spies and pickpockets violate privacy...but not freewill.

Signs, wonders, and miracles may impress some minds but don't they deliver obedience by fear? They do not make people more spiritual or more enlightened do they? The 5000 abandoned Jesus as soon as the free fish and bread stopped coming. God does not seek our obedience.

God provides personality, mind, freewill, time, and the Spirit ministry of love, faith, truth, and assurance to foster our experiential wisdom and the enlightened love based service motive...to serve one another in love is an evolutionary triumph of the Spirit nature.

The world evolves as its people do. As goes the parts so goes the whole.

However...Urantia did have on-planet celestial leadership including a Planetary Prince and a Material Son and Daughter, Adam & Eve, and Machaventa Melchizedek, and a Paradise Son/Creator Son. We have a robust planetary leadership with very caring and experienced rulers and administrators.

Have you read Paper 52 Planetary Mortal Epochs? Without rebellion and default and isolation it is unlikely Urantia would have been chosen the only one of ten million worlds for the Creator Son to walk upon personally and make us the Shrine of Nebadon. Let us trust Christ Michael and the Most Highs to know what's best for us.

8)


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So you seem to be saying that it would be frightening to have physical evidence of super-mortal beings. Fear is probably the most common method of violating free will.
This sounds close to an explanation of why we are never given such evidence.
I also suspect that it would be "overpowering" to a material mind. Were most people to confront such evidence, they would almost certainly misinterpret its meaning.


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tlhall wrote:
So you seem to be saying that it would be frightening to have physical evidence of super-mortal beings. Fear is probably the most common method of violating free will.
This sounds close to an explanation of why we are never given such evidence.
I also suspect that it would be "overpowering" to a material mind. Were most people to confront such evidence, they would almost certainly misinterpret its meaning.


Yes...I agree and think you've nailed it!! :wink:

We are taught that our world is still considered primitive and very susceptible to superstitions and fear based evolutionary religious traditions and beliefs. A study of Paper 52 reveals the fact that Urantia currently exists within multiple Mortal Epochs and so many cultures and populations have so much variety of progress. Some of which are more spiritual and some of which are more scientific and some which are transcending materialism and others caught firmly in its grasp. But we universally share the ministries of the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjusters and are Michael's very special home of his own human experience and under his direct care and guidance.

But the spectrum of disparity in spirituality and evolutionary progress on Urantia makes for some very interesting limitations for our planetary rulers and administrators. Papers 85-99 reveal that our world, as does every world, has a long history of fear based evolutionary progress. Ghost fears and good luck and bad and fetishes and charms and hero worship and sacrifice and atonement and so many other primitive forms of religious beliefs and faith foundations still exist.

Check out all the references to "primitive" - especially in Papers 85-99:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

More informed and more enlightened minds should not judge what is proper for their/our more primitive brothers and sisters. Evolutionary progress takes time. This is also true on those worlds not tainted or touched by rebellion or default or blinded by darkness and isolation. Never is any world won over by shock and awe or miracles and wonder. Never is evolution shortened by demands of obedience. Indeed the rebellion itself was about the promotion of false liberty over true liberty and the default in the Garden was due to immature impatience - both attempts to hurry along the time consuming and patient evolutionary struggle of progress of the whole by the progress of each part of the whole.

We are taught that it is immature impatience that sees our world by the perspective that change is slow. Not true we are taught!! If one applies true vision of the far distant past and the inevitable destiny to come, then and only then can we truly see to witness the march of progress and the speed at which this force of evolutionary change actually occurs!!

Let us be patient and see the progress of the ages and the acceleration of change and progress that is upon us!!

118:1.3 (1295.3) There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

118:1.4 (1295.4) Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

118:1.5 (1295.5) In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
I am not respinsible for saving souls from damnation and eternal suffering.


But isn't to save a soul from damnation the same as, from Apostle Peter & Andrew's perspective, "winning soul for the kingdom of Havona"? To me, it is the exact same thing.

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to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
I am not respinsible for saving souls from damnation and eternal suffering.


But isn't to save a soul from damnation the same as, from Apostle Peter & Andrew's perspective, "winning soul for the kingdom of Havona"? To me, it is the exact same thing.


So...you are claiming souls are at risk of and subjected to damnation. No...winning souls has nothing at all to do with damnation...or hell...or eternal suffering...or anything related to such primitive fear based superstitions which directly contradict the Revelation teachings we study here.

Good Grief. :roll:


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On with the topic of faith and belief and doubts and fear!

Hope is faith. Divine Assurance is a response to faith, which is itself a response to the Spirit within whose ministry delivers urges, yearns, hungers, and thirsts in the mortal mind. We are naturally and inherently and personally connected to Spirit. It is the natural order of universal and personal reality. We don't make that connection. We simply are so connected.

Here are links to some related topics:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5757

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5434

132:3.4 (1459.4) Revealed truth, personally discovered truth, is the supreme delight of the human soul; it is the joint creation of the material mind and the indwelling spirit. The eternal salvation of this truth-discerning and beauty-loving soul is assured by that hunger and thirst for goodness which leads this mortal to develop a singleness of purpose to do the Father’s will, to find God and to become like him. There is never conflict between true knowledge and truth. There may be conflict between knowledge and human beliefs, beliefs colored with prejudice, distorted by fear, and dominated by the dread of facing new facts of material discovery or spiritual progress.

132:3.5 (1459.5) But truth can never become man’s possession without the exercise of faith. This is true because man’s thoughts, wisdom, ethics, and ideals will never rise higher than his faith, his sublime hope. And all such true faith is predicated on profound reflection, sincere self-criticism, and uncompromising moral consciousness. Faith is the inspiration of the spiritized creative imagination.

132:3.6 (1459.6) Faith acts to release the superhuman activities of the divine spark, the immortal germ, that lives within the mind of man, and which is the potential of eternal survival. Plants and animals survive in time by the technique of passing on from one generation to another identical particles of themselves. The human soul (personality) of man survives mortal death by identity association with this indwelling spark of divinity, which is immortal, and which functions to perpetuate the human personality upon a continuing and higher level of progressive universe existence. The concealed seed of the human soul is an immortal spirit. The second generation of the soul is the first of a succession of personality manifestations of spiritual and progressing existences, terminating only when this divine entity attains the source of its existence, the personal source of all existence, God, the Universal Father.


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Topics and discussions related:

"Faith vs. Reason"

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5057

"Skeptic Inquiry Is Fun"

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5232


"Former Believer Here, Current Skeptic"

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5234

8)


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