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SEla_Kelly wrote:
And when you are making a presentation about the relativity of facts and of truth, how can you say that you "obviously know" what my motives and/or opinions may be? This conjecture has offended me deeply! IF I am being honest with you, if I am saying and doing all that I can to show you the reality of my existence, then when others share their interpretations of knowledge and/or reality with us, then you should not presume that "they misunderstood you." I am saying to you that as a finalitor, I am capable of knowing my own share of the total universe reality, even that in the unqualified, and this is through my relationship with the First Source and Center.


You are no finaliter Stephen. You never have been one despite your claims of already being to Paradise and back.

You write down your motives and opinions Stephen and record them for us all. No secret dude.

Your clarity and specificity recently about your disbelief of the UB is refreshing however. I appreciate your recent honesty.


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:10 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Thanks Bradley: that fact will be revealed in time, whether your prediction (your opinion of me) is true.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
My only consolance is in knowing that I am a free man. I have already offered to leave this forum if you do Bradley, first. In spite of any animosity or misunderstanding you may hold against my name, I will always pray for you and your family. When you wake up on the mansion worlds and find out that I have nothing to do with the Lucifer Rebellion, except to end it in my own accord and obedience unto the will of the first source and center, I hope you will forgive yourself.


What a remarkable confession. No such proffer was ever made to me so you must have recently offered a deal here to the mods to leave if they would terminate my posting priveleges here? You hope I will forgive myself? For what? Understanding your beliefs and agenda here based on your own words?


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Because now I know I must become that, even not from my own choice but rather because the father's plans for future children of Urantia to become finalitors is too great.

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Poor choice of word on my part. They refrain from revealing is better suited.

fanofVan wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
So these celestials conceal facts from us because they deem us immature, spiritually. I am thinking facts can be dangerous but not truth. One can receive facts regardless as to moral, social or spiritual maturity, and those facts could be harmful. But not so with truth. Truth I think can never do harm because it depends on degree of receptivity.



SEla_Kelly wrote:
Every human individual has a unique personality, hopefully. If they are each different, then their approaches to reality might be different. When I dealing with other people's opinions, I interested to observe the way they look at life and at relationships with other friends. The things that they tell me might not be facts, but such opinions are the honest reflection of their views on reality. The facts, I can say, is what I might agree with another person. People want consensus scientifically, but diversity of opinion religiously speaking. Psychologically, facts are maybe relegated to the auspices of conscience, "not to hang your hat upon"- seeing that the Revelators indicate a superconsciousness, which may help us to identify whatever truth may be held in the currency of aphorism, tangible knowledge, or even facts of statutory regulations, which are not nature's laws but the affirmation of mankind.

This why I think much of the views expressed in the Urantia Papers are not facts, but rather opinions: the opinions of Melchizedek and the Divine Counselor. These views were shaped by those individuals' agreement before Urantia received the Urantia Book. But there is enough to look at their style and understand what kind personalities they are. If you can see that such beings share as much confirmation of the reality to you as possible, but even they admit much that is in the unknown potentials. You can only take these as opinions and theories, but if such opinions come from wise beings, then you might reason that the authors really did have your best interests involved when this book was written.

Consider that the comission that the Authors of tUB held, on behalf of Gabriel the First Born of Michael and the Divine Minister of Salvington, was to tailor or curtail facts, according to the moral reasoning of mankind, the relativity of the human individual's unique pursuit of wisdom.


The revelators do not "conceal" facts. There is that which is revealed and that which is not yet or to be revealed and there is that which the authors do not know themselves as facts. The authors are very clear and very specific when they speculate and conjecture. Let us not obscure this fact. There are tens of thousands of facts presented, facts on every single page of the UB. They are stated AS facts and presented AS facts...clearly so.

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My mistake. I interpreted curtail for conceal.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Um, no did I write "conceal" I wrote "curtail"! I wrote "tailored or curtailed", not concealed. Also, yes I do love Gabriel. Tailored to the maximum total comprehension of human knowledge, yes Sir!

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What is unspiritual? Is it materialism?

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I am thinking facts can be dangerous but not truth. One can receive facts regardless as to moral, social or spiritual maturity, and those facts could be harmful. But not so with truth. Truth I think can never do harm because it depends on degree of receptivity.


What you say makes sense, but I would qualify it. Truth is harmless only when is experienced through spiritual insight in the soul as explained in this reference below. I think unspiritual truth is a different species of what we commonly call "truth". I'm not sure what to call it though. Maybe it's fact, as you say.

(1949.7) 180:5.5   The golden rule, when divested of the superhuman insight of the Spirit of Truth, becomes nothing more than a rule of high ethical conduct. The golden rule, when literally interpreted, may become the instrument of great offense to one’s fellows. Without a spiritual discernment of the golden rule of wisdom you might reason that, since you are desirous that all men speak the full and frank truth of their minds to you, you should therefore fully and frankly speak the full thought of your mind to your fellow beings. Such an unspiritual interpretation of the golden rule might result in ]untold unhappiness and no end of sorrow.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
What is unspiritual? Is it materialism?


I tend to think of anything ending in "-ism" as a belief system, so I wouldn't use that term to describe the word "unspiritual". To be poetic, unspiritual would mean not involving the living waters of the soul but rather the mundanely unwatered intellect. We have two minds, one has material influences the other has spiritual influences. The lower mind is unspiritual until its thoughts find their way into the supermind, the liaison zone between the material and spiritual, where the Thought Adjuster can spiritualize them. There too is the Spirit of Truth who makes these spiritualized thoughts ready for action in the material world, being that this spirit is responsible for actual living truth. The process is described in the second reference below where wisdom labors to elevate thoughts to the supermind liaison realm so the Adjuster can spiritize them with "living waters" for action by the Spirit of Truth. References:

(1208.2) 110:5.3 During the slumber season the Adjuster attempts to achieve only that which the will of the indwelt personality has previously fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness, and which have thereby become lodged in the realms of the supermind, the liaison domain of human and divine interrelationship.


(1112:3) 101:6.7 Revelation teaches mortal man that, to start such a magnificent and intriguing adventure through space by means of the progression of time, he should begin by the organization of knowledge into idea-decisions; next, mandate wisdom to labor unremittingly at its noble task of transforming self-possessed ideas into increasingly practical but nonetheless supernal ideals, even those concepts which are so reasonable as ideas and so logical as ideals that the Adjuster dares so to combine and spiritize them as to render them available for such association in the finite mind as will constitute them the actual human complement thus made ready for the action of the Truth Spirit of the Sons, the time-space manifestations of Paradise truth—universal truth. The co-ordination of idea-decisions, logical ideals, and divine truth constitutes the possession of a righteous character, the prerequisite for mortal admission to the ever-expanding and increasingly spiritual realities of the morontia worlds.


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I really admire your insight into the revelation, and disciplined and controlled nature when conversing with others of differing views. I want to start a new but controversial topic and would desire that you participate. Please look for it if you are interested.

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
What is unspiritual? Is it materialism?


I tend to think of anything ending in "-ism" as a belief system, so I wouldn't use that term to describe the word "unspiritual". To be poetic, unspiritual would mean not involving the living waters of the soul but rather the mundanely unwatered intellect. We have two minds, one has material influences the other has spiritual influences. The lower mind is unspiritual until its thoughts find their way into the supermind, the liaison zone between the material and spiritual, where the Thought Adjuster can spiritualize them. There too is the Spirit of Truth who makes these spiritualized thoughts ready for action in the material world, being that this spirit is responsible for actual living truth. The process is described in the second reference below where wisdom labors to elevate thoughts to the supermind liaison realm so the Adjuster can spiritize them with "living waters" for action by the Spirit of Truth. References:

(1208.2) 110:5.3 During the slumber season the Adjuster attempts to achieve only that which the will of the indwelt personality has previously fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness, and which have thereby become lodged in the realms of the supermind, the liaison domain of human and divine interrelationship.


(1112:3) 101:6.7 Revelation teaches mortal man that, to start such a magnificent and intriguing adventure through space by means of the progression of time, he should begin by the organization of knowledge into idea-decisions; next, mandate wisdom to labor unremittingly at its noble task of transforming self-possessed ideas into increasingly practical but nonetheless supernal ideals, even those concepts which are so reasonable as ideas and so logical as ideals that the Adjuster dares so to combine and spiritize them as to render them available for such association in the finite mind as will constitute them the actual human complement thus made ready for the action of the Truth Spirit of the Sons, the time-space manifestations of Paradise truth—universal truth. The co-ordination of idea-decisions, logical ideals, and divine truth constitutes the possession of a righteous character, the prerequisite for mortal admission to the ever-expanding and increasingly spiritual realities of the morontia worlds.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Because now I know I must become that, even not from my own choice but rather because the father's plans for future children of Urantia to become finalitors is too great.


Another contradiction of the teachings Stephen. I know you don't believe in free will but it is ONLY your "own choice"(s) that will bring survival of this life, resurrection in the next, fusion with the Adjuster, and muster into the Corps of Finality.

Not even God may choose for you or for any other. God gave us free will. It is inviolate. We choose our own way and our own results and our own destiny. Or so the UB teaches.


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Earlier in this thread, kat posted:

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I think the book can be read with too much emphasis on fact, or philosophy, or truth. The goal is a balanced and integrated approach. Some folks are better at facts, some are wizards of philosophy, both of which can be shared with others. But truth is a personal thing and can only be shared by living it, not easily done on a forum. Which is why kindness, patience and tolerance are so vital here.


I thank you for this observation - one that has been brought up here before but so often, so easily, forgotten. I am continually amazed and really disheartened by the seeming inability of some of the members here to simply accept one another's views and interpretations without accusations as to motive and character. One can accept while also challenging the idea, not the person.

Nevertheless, that is what we are called to do. It's pretty simple. And if we can't do it, or won't do it, our high-minded and intellectual grasp of facts, figures and UB quotes are really meaningless. If we can't put aside our kneejerk reactions and try to discern true motive and meaning in each other's attempts to understand and live the revelation, all of this effort doesn't mean a thing - not really. It is merely a sideshow. If we nurture sinister suspicions about each other and use cynicism and sarcasm to get our point across at the expense of another, that says a lot about our true understanding of the revelation - and it certainly minimizes the value of the point being made.

I sometimes wonder if we were all sitting in someone's living room having discussions about The Urantia Book - being in one another's personal presence - if we would be so quick to judge, to accuse, to snipe and be sarcastic towards one another...alas, doing this kind of discussion when we are all anonymous allows for the social governors of politeness and kindness and real brotherhood to be ignored at times. This is very unfortunate. Behind every screen name is a real person. In spite of our differences, we all have feelings.

Some of us may never come to a real meeting of the minds about certain aspects of The Urantia Book. Nevertheless, we are all here to discuss it as best we can. Above all, we are called to love one another. The civility of this forum must be maintained. Imagine if Jesus was here witnessing our goings-on..and maybe he is.

I ask that those who see themselves in this post will quickly change their tone to one of sympathetic brotherhood, rather than this tone of judgment, criticism, and sarcasm that rears its ugly head from time to time.

maryjo


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PS:

And BTW, there are others on this forum who really seem to get it. There are some excellent discussions taking place elsewhere here. Others are modeling what I think anyone might agree are good examples of discussing issues.

Again, if the shoe fits...thanks so much.


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Hello maryjo606,

I really appreciate that you provide a medium of exchange for readers of UB. You know, some of us are zealots for the revelations, and I honestly can understand that. I have tolerance for yall, dammit!!! :badgrin: But, on a real, we got to respect one another's opinions on revelation. Tolerance for differing views is the key to solidarity.

I have said this on several occasion here in the past, as long as the authors are not present to explain what they mean, basically we are all sharing opinions. I apologize if I come across inebriated. I just came from the pub! :D

maryjo606 wrote:
Earlier in this thread, kat posted:

Quote:
I think the book can be read with too much emphasis on fact, or philosophy, or truth. The goal is a balanced and integrated approach. Some folks are better at facts, some are wizards of philosophy, both of which can be shared with others. But truth is a personal thing and can only be shared by living it, not easily done on a forum. Which is why kindness, patience and tolerance are so vital here.


I thank you for this observation - one that has been brought up here before but so often, so easily, forgotten. I am continually amazed and really disheartened by the seeming inability of some of the members here to simply accept one another's views and interpretations without accusations as to motive and character. One can accept while also challenging the idea, not the person.

Nevertheless, that is what we are called to do. It's pretty simple. And if we can't do it, or won't do it, our high-minded and intellectual grasp of facts, figures and UB quotes are really meaningless. If we can't put aside our kneejerk reactions and try to discern true motive and meaning in each other's attempts to understand and live the revelation, all of this effort doesn't mean a thing - not really. It is merely a sideshow. If we nurture sinister suspicions about each other and use cynicism and sarcasm to get our point across at the expense of another, that says a lot about our true understanding of the revelation - and it certainly minimizes the value of the point being made.

I sometimes wonder if we were all sitting in someone's living room having discussions about The Urantia Book - being in one another's personal presence - if we would be so quick to judge, to accuse, to snipe and be sarcastic towards one another...alas, doing this kind of discussion when we are all anonymous allows for the social governors of politeness and kindness and real brotherhood to be ignored at times. This is very unfortunate. Behind every screen name is a real person. In spite of our differences, we all have feelings.

Some of us may never come to a real meeting of the minds about certain aspects of The Urantia Book. Nevertheless, we are all here to discuss it as best we can. Above all, we are called to love one another. The civility of this forum must be maintained. Imagine if Jesus was here witnessing our goings-on..and maybe he is.

I ask that those who see themselves in this post will quickly change their tone to one of sympathetic brotherhood, rather than this tone of judgment, criticism, and sarcasm that rears its ugly head from time to time.

maryjo

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Hello maryjo606,

I really appreciate that you provide a medium of exchange for readers of UB. You know, some of us are zealots for the revelations, and I honestly can understand that. I have tolerance for yall, dammit!!! :badgrin: But, on a real, we got to respect one another's opinions on revelation.


Well, yes and no. If I said it was my opinion that the UB teaches that the moon is made of cheese, I would rightfully and appropriately be debated on that point and asked to show a UB reference quote from which my opinion derives. This is a UB study group, after all. Not a place for people to vent opinions that directly contradict or have nothing to do with the UB teachings.

If you have an opinion, say, that Pentecost is a holiday at which time one unspiritual human is given their TA, you need to point to *something* in the UB from which you may have reasonably derived such an opinion. Otherwise, it's no more relevant than saying you believe the moon is made of cheese.


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Agon, I will clarify then. I didn't express myself effectively. if you said the moon is made of cheese, I would respect your right to that opinion. I would not agree with it, and would challenge the claim, but, still, respect your right to publish it to the board. There is nothing wrong with debating issues and, over the course of my stay on this BBS, I have witnessed maryjo606 repeatedly support and encourage debate within the parameters of TOS. However when people start attacking the person behind the message and not the message, then the discussion takes a turn for disrespect which IS A TOS violation. Making snide remarks or outright insulting a person's character is a TOS violation.




Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Hello maryjo606,

I really appreciate that you provide a medium of exchange for readers of UB. You know, some of us are zealots for the revelations, and I honestly can understand that. I have tolerance for yall, dammit!!! :badgrin: But, on a real, we got to respect one another's opinions on revelation.


Well, yes and no. If I said it was my opinion that the UB teaches that the moon is made of cheese, I would rightfully and appropriately be debated on that point and asked to show a UB reference quote from which my opinion derives. This is a UB study group, after all. Not a place for people to vent opinions that directly contradict or have nothing to do with the UB teachings.

If you have an opinion, say, that Pentecost is a holiday at which time one unspiritual human is given their TA, you need to point to *something* in the UB from which you may have reasonably derived such an opinion. Otherwise, it's no more relevant than saying you believe the moon is made of cheese.

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