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toto wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Paper 52 should be consulted for information related to those changes to come....the changes to come for our world depend upon the reality that....as go the parts, so goes the whole....those who contribute fear and anger and blame and regret only slow the process down.



Perhaps it is best to avoid road rage against the slowpokes that would "slow the process down"


fanofVan wrote:
When I get angry Enno you will know it. And whenever you decide to get friendly I'll be glad to reciprocate.


Sounds like a threat to me? If what we have seen on this post from Bradly is his nice side, I dare say that his angry side would be dangerously formidable. Get yourself friendly quickly, Enno, before we all get it in the crossfire.


Louis


Hahahahaha....the leader of the pack of ankle biters! toto aka Louis, Mannie, loucol, Johnnybones, and who knows how many other monikers...all with the same yap yap and chew chew. Amusing!

:biggrin: :biggrin: :D 8)


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Bradly, I owe you a sincere apology. I hope you will accept it and forgive my inappropriateness in many of our discussions here on these boards. It's my hope that moving forward from here on out, you and I will only engage each other in friendly terms. I have learned a lot about many things since becoming a member of this and other Urantia Book forums but none more than how much I still need to grow and gain experience, to learn. Along with that I cannot any longer deny the value of everyone who's engaged with learning what it is we should be doing as a unique group of people together, this rare community who seek the greatest possible understanding of the Master's instructions for furthering his goals of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and spreading the news that there exists a resource available for all to use for direction in this confused world; the Urantia Book.

It is my hope that the members of this and other forums as well as forum visitors, will begin to pool together their knowledge to strengthen each other's resolve to engage and feed the hungry hearts of many out on the highways and byways of the internet to help them find what we've found, instead of endlessly debating each other's interpretations of what the Urantia Book says.

I've recently become impressed with the notion that all of this has been a very profound preparation. A training for group activities in new ways yet unimagined, probably using this relatively new social medium of the internet to minister to our brothers and sisters who languish about almost in complete confusion regarding God and who they are as his children.

I hope we will all begin to work together now and meet in the spirit to achieve our Master's goals and I hope to hear from any and all of you with your thoughts and suggestions.

Enno


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Bradly, I owe you a sincere apology. I hope you will accept it and forgive my inappropriateness in many of our discussions here on these boards. It's my hope that moving forward from here on out, you and I will only engage each other in friendly terms. I have learned a lot about many things since becoming a member of this and other Urantia Book forums but none more than how much I still need to grow and gain experience, to learn. Along with that I cannot any longer deny the value of everyone who's engaged with learning what it is we should be doing as a unique group of people together, this rare community who seek the greatest possible understanding of the Master's instructions for furthering his goals of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and spreading the news that there exists a resource available for all to use for direction in this confused world; the Urantia Book.

It is my hope that the members of this and other forums as well as forum visitors, will begin to pool together their knowledge to strengthen each other's resolve to engage and feed the hungry hearts of many out on the highways and byways of the internet to help them find what we've found, instead of endlessly debating each other's interpretations of what the Urantia Book says.

I've recently become impressed with the notion that all of this has been a very profound preparation. A training for group activities in new ways yet unimagined, probably using this relatively new social medium of the internet to minister to our brothers and sisters who languish about almost in complete confusion regarding God and who they are as his children.

I hope we will all begin to work together now and meet in the spirit to achieve our Master's goals and I hope to hear from any and all of you with your thoughts and suggestions.

Enno


Thanks for that Enno. :D


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Thank you Enno for saving us from the wrath of Bradly. I'm sure he will come around and lose his anger at our little pack of terror terriers. Your outreach is a great first step.


fanofVan wrote:
Hahahahaha....the leader of the pack of ankle biters! toto aka Louis, Mannie, loucol, Johnnybones, and who knows how many other monikers...all with the same yap yap and chew chew. Amusing!


BTW, I like my ankles with Buffalo sauce.


toto aka Louis, Mannie, loucal, Johynnybones, ankle biter, etc.


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fanofVan wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
Bradly, I owe you a sincere apology. I hope you will accept it and forgive my inappropriateness in many of our discussions here on these boards. It's my hope that moving forward from here on out, you and I will only engage each other in friendly terms. I have learned a lot about many things since becoming a member of this and other Urantia Book forums but none more than how much I still need to grow and gain experience, to learn. Along with that I cannot any longer deny the value of everyone who's engaged with learning what it is we should be doing as a unique group of people together, this rare community who seek the greatest possible understanding of the Master's instructions for furthering his goals of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth and spreading the news that there exists a resource available for all to use for direction in this confused world; the Urantia Book.

It is my hope that the members of this and other forums as well as forum visitors, will begin to pool together their knowledge to strengthen each other's resolve to engage and feed the hungry hearts of many out on the highways and byways of the internet to help them find what we've found, instead of endlessly debating each other's interpretations of what the Urantia Book says.

I've recently become impressed with the notion that all of this has been a very profound preparation. A training for group activities in new ways yet unimagined, probably using this relatively new social medium of the internet to minister to our brothers and sisters who languish about almost in complete confusion regarding God and who they are as his children.

I hope we will all begin to work together now and meet in the spirit to achieve our Master's goals and I hope to hear from any and all of you with your thoughts and suggestions.

Enno


Thanks for that Enno. :D


Enno...it has been some time since we discussed this topic and I thought we might re-visit it! I appreciate your words above and have been thinking that the original quote you posted as the topic does not say.. "..he who does not agree with me is against me"....hahaha!

I'm hoping that disagreements here might become less disagreeable however!! Things have certainly improved between us at the Forum since you posted the above....I am certain they will remain so here and now as well.

So....we discussed the possible meanings of the quote you posted, especially in context with the situation and the audience, and also considered the explanation provided later in the UB when Jesus seemed to say just the opposite and confounded the Apostles by doing so.

I don't know if you were ever satisfied with the meaning you were seeking or not?

I have reread this topic (more than once) due to additional research and consideration and had some thoughts on the matter. I have always found the use of paradox by the Master a most interesting teaching method - the first shall be last, etc. and think he purposely said two opposing and contradictory things in front of the Apostles to require thinking - critical thinking and analysis for those religionists and philosophers who are seeking to understand and harmonize this life and our dual natures within that life.

In Paper 153, those who "compelled" Jesus to declare he who is not with me is against me to them directly and boldly were his self-sworn enemies seeking his death. While in Paper 159, when he said he who is not against us is for us was to the Apostles regarding those sincerely expressing their personal religious faith and convictions. The first group being the enemies of truth, beauty, and goodness while the second group were those preaching and teaching, but whom the Apostles found objectionable or were jealous of (you know how obsessed they were with seats at the table!).

Please know I am not your enemy either Enno....and is okay to disagree!! By such contrast perhaps we might both learn something! Here's hoping......

:wink: :biggrin: 8)


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Again, you must consider the demand of Jesus in regards to the context of his sermon. He was being put on trial by the adult Sadducees agents, and harrowing to differentiate experience from reports & allegation. It was in a moment when literally his home nation refused to follow Jesus and Jesus was required to push forward with the new covenant.

Since the Sadducees had turned against Jesus before Jesus made such declaration "Who is with me is for me, and who is not with me is against me," then Jesus suggests logically that the Sanhedrin is against Jesus and to collaborate with them is to stand against Jesus. Thus, all subconscious predispositions with regards to the individual's willingness to perform God's will are made consciously accounable.

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to the underlaying unity of all life
so that the voice of intuition may guide us
closer to our common keeper


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I don't want to start an argument here, but from my personal experience with the Jesus of the Gospels and my newbieness to the Paper's description of his life, I'd like to put in my two shekels.

Jesus offers this quotation following the a religious debate/scandal in the synagogue at Capernaum. To abridge this event, I'll say this: he answers some questions posited by the Pharisees (the 'bread from heaven' controversy) and talks about how the Torah should always be considered superior to rabbinic sources. After healing a demoniac boy, the Pharisees accuse him of being in league with demons. Knowing the inadvertent implications of such an accusation, he has a brief outburst of frustration with them. During this rant he basically says the Biblical equivalent of 'why do I even bother with you people?"; and then calms down a bit to declare that every human's true intentions and origin are apparent in their way of life. He then departs with a stern warning to the Jews concerning the sign that he is from God: if they cannot determine who he is by what he has already done for them, they will just declare him a liar and a sorcerer if he works a miracle for them again.

Here I think is what Jesus is getting at—we humans are faced with a choice: A: to compromise the Adamic Default and return 'home' to the celestial kingdom of our Eternal Father. B: to run away in shame and desperately hope to forget the truth of our origin is and God's inevitable will for our planet. There is no real middle ground here, and that is important. To God, recognition or denial of the Deity is an irreversible alteration to our spiritual consciousness; like a city set on a high mountain and fortified, it cannot be hidden or besieged; like the construction of a high tower or a declaration of war, one must understand the consequences of his actions—be they immediate or indirect—before making such a decision.

Quote:
[140:3.1] Said the Master: "Of the teacher more is expected than of the pupil; of the master more is exacted than of the servant. Of the citizens of the heavenly kingdom more is required than of the citizens of the earthly rule. You have elected to represent me in the world even as I now represent the Father; and as my agents on earth you will be obligated to abide by those teachings and practices, which I exemplify in my earth life of revealing the Father who is in heaven."

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"He who comes to me shall not hunger, while he who believes me shall never thirst." [∴ 153:2.8]


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SEla and Adam....I appreciate your ability and tendency to consider the context and audience of the Master with each quote and teaching when we discuss his intended meaning. Best as I can tell Jesus had and addressed 6 unique 'audiences' that require the student's awareness and consideration when studying his words and the meanings of those teachings (or rebukes or warnings or counsel, etc.):

1. The citizens of Nebadon.

2. The general public or crowds of those who gathered about him in small and large groups.

3. The disciples...those who became committed as emissaries and ambassadors of the kingdom while still engaged as citizens of the realm and their families and mortal obligations.

4. The apostles....those who forsook all material obligations and dedicated their very lives and existence to representing the 4th epochal revelation - the Son of Man and Son of God - to their world, facing rejection with public faith and courage while preaching and teaching the disciples, the public, and all who would hear.

5. Individuals...we are given many such examples in the UB of the Master's words and counsel and instruction to individuals as he passed by - a very wide spectrum of people and issues indeed for our current education and reflection.

6. The priesthood - those enemies of truth, beauty, goodness, and the good news or Jesusonian Gospel proclaimed to this world and an entire universe. These were those who were the self selected enemies of Jesus and those who plotted and schemed and set about to entrap and murder the Lord. And while they did succeed in the murder of the man, they certainly failed to kill the Son of God or his Gospel or his gift of the Spirit of Truth. But their evil, unrighteous, and sinful motives and acts were certainly called out and condemned by the Son of Man...boldly, publicly, plainly, specifically, and repeatedly!!

Paper 153 is an excellent presentment of Jesus engaging his enemies in public and with directness and boldness!!!

Jesus was an activist....he did not passively submit to other's evil, sin, and acts of aggression....he contrasted but exposed evil by such contrast. He was in charge of his mission and ministry...and he knew the enemies of that mission and ministry and it was ONLY to those mortals and FOR those mortals that he proclaimed..."He who is not with me is against me".

And to and about and for the tadpoles of this world, and all others, who are merely beset by confusion and ignorance and the natural material nature who seek faith assurance by evolutionary religion and truth assurance by personal revelation and the God Fragment within he clearly stated "...he who is not against us is for us".

I think it important to note the "me" and "me" in the first quote and the "us" and "us" in the second quote. I think the first quote is clearly for those who presume to represent God and God's will but are self proclaimed enemies of the Son of God and the Good News delivered by him. And the second is about everybody else...all who hope for survival and are not the self proclaimed enemies of truth...no matter how ignorant, fearful, delusional, or base in their personal material experience - those who do not proclaim to be against truth, beauty, and goodness are truly FOR the assurance of faith and trust within - seekers of inner peace and happiness...tadpoles doing the best they understand.

I have warned and admonished nod/Enno on this peculiar and dangerous trait/habit of his to post snippets of text without the entire quote for context...it is grave error and obviously intentional since he has been rebuked many times for the same, repeated infraction and poor habit. It is a way of changing the meaning of the text to say something which it does not - clearly - within the context of its inclusion. This shows a base motive and an agenda to prove by the teachings a personal bias and prejudice rather than to seek any true understanding and application of the book and teachings. I give another such warning and admonishment here...for more than the tenth time here and other forums. Please stop it!! It destroys your own credibility!! It demonstrates a lack of sincerity...at least.


Indeed, as Adam points out, if one were to simply read the text of Paper 153, the audience, situation, and context for this snippet, grabbed from the middle of a much longer quote by nod, readily demonstrates the meanings of the words spoken which completely refutes and makes irrelevant nod's opening post and questions!! Come on man!! You can do better!!

And I hope you will. You started a topic/discussion called "The Dangers of the Urantia Book":

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5332

nod/Enno - I hope you will reconsider that thread and this one too and others, and your intentions by its posting in light of any personal growth and progress in appreciation and understanding of the UB in the last 1-2 years. It is not too late here to amend your prior comments to demonstrate such growth Enno....on any topic in which you may now find yourself in disagreement with prior postings. It is my opinion that the posting of snippets and attempting to change the meanings of the text for personal prejudice confirmations is a DANGER some students and readers pose to the movement and student body. But such is far less dangerous than the refusal to amend and adjust one's words when one's motive and intention may grow and progress beyond the point of those earlier demonstrated errors of judgment and expression.

You have used this snippet of text posted here, as title to this topic, to declare or at least infer that it is about tadpoles or the mortals of Urantia and a "great demarcation" which determines those who survive this life and those who do not and that there is "no gray area"! These are absurd claims which contradict the teachings and content of the UB AND misstate and misquote the UB in a misguided attempt to support your own narrow minded, personal belief. This is dangerous indeed.

And while I appreciate your most recent apology to me and the community for your missteps and misdirected anger, it would be appropriate to specifically address such misstatements and your new understanding of and appreciation for the UB's teachings. Those who come upon many of your prior topics and posts may, mistakenly I am sure, come to believe it is you who are "against" the good news presented and those who study it...and those who presented it too. Are you "for" or "against" this gift and those who read it and study it and hope to disseminate it and share it here and elsewhere to our world? For those who snip text and misquote, misstate, misuse, twist, distort, and attempt to change the good news given cannot be considered friends of that which they so eagerly misrepresent.

Something to consider.

Your original post appears, to me, to really be about your own hope to better understand the brief material life and how to gain the "survival assurance" the UB teaches so much about in Papers 100-103...the faith assurance of evolutionary religion and the truth assurance of personal and epochal revelation. It is my long standing and often spoken opinion that you dwell far too much on what others do and do not do and say and do not say and how many will survive and will not and why....which to me, sadly, demonstrates your own personal doubts and fears which you insist upon projecting onto others. You apparently fear for your own survival and, thusly, for the survival of others....many others....perhaps all others?!

It might be more to the point to explore and discuss and study the UB's text which might best help you in your own "assurance" rather than continue to make declarations about the doubts you have and the dangers you perceive as though those had anything to do with others....they don't.

Perhaps you might consider starting a topic on "Assurance"? A fascinating topic at the center of the UB teachings and also the good news Jesusonian Gospel!! Something to consider? Here's a link to a key word search for assurance:

https://urantia-association.org/search/ ... t%5B%5D=-1

The adjutants, the Thought Adjusters, the Spirit of Truth - all have one primary task and priority: the assurance of survival and salvation. The experience and nature of personal religion is all about receiving and having this assurance. Those who lack such assurance are in great need and worthy of our time, attention, and loving service and it those for whom the Good News is intended and most welcome!!

What a great topic!!

:wink: :biggrin: :idea: :!: :?:

8)


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