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Bart wrote:
Hi Bonita, I wonder whether you ever took a close look at one of the fractal images I provided.. :)


Dude, several times. What does that have to do with anything? I knew of fractal images years before you ever showed up here. You're missing the point entirely. I guess you are so in love with those images that you can see nothing else. Gazing at those fractals seem to be like looking at the Medussa to you. You really need to break the spell brother. It's getting a bit ridiculous and I'm starting to get more than concerned about you. Not to impugn your character, but perhaps it's time for an intervention. :D

And I'm offended that you think I'm so ignorant not to engage this topic thoroughly before entering into a discussion on it. I also fear that you think I'm stupid concerning these things. You forget that even though I don't have a degree in mathematics, I do have an advanced degree in science. You're not talking to a fool. I would think though, being new to TUB, that you would show more respect to those who have spent decades studying it within the context of modern science. Just sayin' :smile:

Have you actually read anything I've written??


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Bonita wrote:
Bart wrote:
Hi Bonita, I wonder whether you ever took a close look at one of the fractal images I provided.. :)
Dude, several times. What does that have to do with anything? I knew of fractal images years before you ever showed up here. You're missing the point entirely. I guess you are so in love with those images that you can see nothing else. Gazing at those fractals seem to be like looking at the Medussa to you. You really need to break the spell brother. It's getting a bit ridiculous and I'm starting to get more than concerned about you. Not to impugn your character, but perhaps it's time for an intervention. :D ...
Okay Bonita. It appears that our individual thought patterns are not quite compatible.. :? I just wonder how that can be? No one can tell me anything new about absolute unity. And absolute unity is also the fundamental postulate of TUB. And you are an expert on TUB. So why don’t we understand each other?

Greetings, Bart


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Hi Bonita and all,

It certainly would be presumptuous of me to attempt to provide a definition of personality, but you all's in depth study has given me an idea.

And that's it, that personality is an IDEA--or the projection of a unique concept.

This is the only way I can think of that personality can be changeless in the presence of change.

if this is so, then pattern does not configure personality, personality is antecedent to pattern.

The Idea in the mind of God is static the PROJECTION of it constitutes personality--or another way of saying it may be that personalities primary function is the conveyance of concept of what a being IS TO BE--we choose to self REALize this concept or not.

This is consistent with what occurs during the direct creation of numerous beings such as Creator Sons:

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P.234 - §6 When the fullness of absolute spiritual ideation in the Eternal Son encounters the fullness of absolute personality concept in the Universal Father, when such a creative union is finally and fully attained, when such absolute identity of spirit and such infinite oneness of personality concept occur, then, right then and there, without the loss of anything of personality or prerogative by either of the infinite Deities, there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son, the only-begotten Son of the perfect ideal and the powerful idea whose union produces this new creator personality of power and perfection.


Thanks,

Mike

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Men and women will NEVER understand each other.

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Mike C. wrote:
It certainly would be presumptuous of me to attempt to provide a definition of personality, but you all's in depth study has given me an idea.

And that's it, that personality is an IDEA--or the projection of a unique concept.


Hey Mike,

I like that. An idea, or projection of a unique concept. Feels good inside!

Amazing thing. The Universal Paradise Father puts a virgin pre-personal spark of himself, absolute reality, next to the seat of the personality, in the mind of a material mortal human being. And the evolution of that connection finalizes in a Being that is both once-human and God joined together forever. The outer becomes like the inner, and the inner becomes the same as the outer, with personality. Truly a unique concept and evolution.

Well, another shot at personality understanding 8)

Enjoy the evening,
God Bless,
Bill


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Gerdean. wrote:
Men and women will NEVER understand each other.


Hi Gerdean,

And ain't we glad of that! I mean where would the adventure be if we were the same? :idea:

God Bless, Sister
Bill


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I guess so, Bill. Anyway, who am I to question the way God set it up? But it does seem to my finite brain that we would get more accomplished if we didn't have to stop and interpret everything each other says. Fact is, there's a LOT about the way God set it up that both confuses and challenges me, but in the end I have to admit it makes sense.

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Bart wrote:
No one can tell me anything new about absolute unity. And absolute unity is also the fundamental postulate of TUB. And you are an expert on TUB. So why don’t we understand each other?


There lies the problem Bart, you've just answered your own question. Do you realize how presumptuous that statement is? Probably not.

So no one can tell you anything new about absolute unity, huh???? That explains why you have trouble assimilating what I'm saying, because you have already made up your mind that no one can tell you anything new. It makes perfect sense to me and explains why talking to you on this subject is like talking to a radio. You keep blasting your own agenda and seemingly cannot hear anything I'm saying. You must be broadcasting and not receiving.

And Bart, you've made an error in judgment assuming that we don't understand each other. I certainly do understand everything you've said, even though you don't believe it. I am receiving your channel or frequency, and I get it, loud and clear. It is you who does not understand what I am saying; and you never will, as long as you have the attitude that you can't be shown anything new on a subject.

So do you consider yourself to be the world's expert on this subject then, knowing everything there is to know about it the way you do? That is fascinating and frightening.

Some day you will realize that you know absolutely nothing about absolute unity, and then you'll start to really learn something. Until then, I'm sorry to say that your attitude is . . . well . . . for a better word . . . smug. At least that is how I see it, for whatever it's worth.


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Mike C. wrote:
It certainly would be presumptuous of me to attempt to provide a definition of personality, but you all's in depth study has given me an idea.

And that's it, that personality is an IDEA--or the projection of a unique concept.

if this is so, then pattern does not configure personality, personality is antecedent to pattern.

The Idea in the mind of God is static the PROJECTION of it constitutes personality--or another way of saying it may be that personalities primary function is the conveyance of concept of what a being IS TO BE--we choose to self REALize this concept or not.


We are told that the Universal Father is the direct ancestor-source of both pattern and personality and the bestower of each. We are also told that the Eternal son is the pattern personality, yet the Universal Father, who is also personality, is the ancestor. It seems to me that pattern can occur without personality since it can be projected onto nonliving (unconscious) matter, but personality cannot occur without pattern. Pattern is projected and configures energies; personality is superimposed upon those configured energies and associates its free-will and self-consciousness on and with those configured energies. Pattern lays the structure and personality identifies, integrates and coalesces the energy structure into a potentially deified reality. Can you have personality without pattern? I don't think so, but you surely can have pattern without personality. At least that's how I'm reading the text.

Personality is what unifies the various levels of configured energies, mind, spirit and material. Personality is a form of reality. If ideas or concepts are real, then I guess that personality can also be thought of as an idea with free-will and consciousness of itself. Personality that is loyal, that identifies with and dedicates itself to Deity, will unify all energies within a given pattern so they are in alignment with the Master pattern, thus becoming more perfect and more real. Our Master pattern is Michael of Nebadon, which is why it is so easy to identify with him.

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1.5.6 These Paradise Sons of the order of Michael are perfect personalities, even the pattern for all local universe personality from that of the Bright and Morning Star down to the lowest human creature of progressing animal evolution.


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Bonita wrote:
There lies the problem Bart, you've just answered your own question. Do you realize how presumptuous that statement is? Probably not. ...

Hi Bonita,

I more or less regret my previous reply.. We had a good discussion on pattern and energy and personality. However, when you say that my term ‘energy-pattern’ means something different than ‘a pattern of energy’, I think that’s a bit far fetched and it distracts from the constructive discussion. I also often use the term ‘free-will’, whereas TUB only uses the terms ‘free will’ and ‘freewill’. But you never complained about that.

Then you said: “Personality is not a combination of energy and pattern. Personality is the pattern of identity, but it is not pattern as defined in the Foreword. [..] the word "pattern" in the Foreword means the original from which copies are made.” I don’t think I agree. I understood that “Personality is superimposed upon energy, and it is associated only with living energy systems; identity can be associated with nonliving energy patterns.” (0:5.4)

Next you explained how “pattern reveals the individualistic and unique manner in which the associated and superimposed personality arranges the energy system due to its power or sovereignty of will.”. I fully agree. And you continue, “Every TYPE of personality has a master pattern on Paradise, but the type of personality and each individual personality are not copies of one another, only the pattern, or master design, is copied.” Here you exactly describe a fractal organization! Hence my question, did you ever take a good look at these fractal images? Of course I know you have, but I wonder if we see them in quite the same way..

Finally, I admit that my statement “No one can tell me anything new about absolute unity” was provocative.. Sorry about that.. :| But really, philosophically, absolute unity is simply Absolute Unity; ONE; a singular point. What more can there be told about absolute unity? Note that I am not talking about experiencing absolute unity. And after all, absolute unity is the basic philosophical postulate of TUB. And as far as I’m concerned, TUB’s portrayal of how finite energy patterns evolve from and relate to absolute unity and infinity (the I AM), can be translated and understood in terms of a chaos theory. This is, of course, only a conceptual framework within which thought is possible; just like you must have a conceptual framework to think about TUB’s absolute infinity unity and finite diversity. But you said earlier that you don’t reject chaos as a possible model of the coexistence of finite and infinite reality. So I sincerely wonder why you apparently don’t recognize or agree that fractal self-organization in a chaotic dynamical system exactly complies with TUB’s concept of (hierarchical) energy pattern (or dynamical structure)..

Greetings, Bart


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Greetings Bart,

It is interesting that you perceive absolute unity as a basic singularity, a philosophic abstraction or generalization. I look at absolute unity as a infinite whole beyond any measure I can come up with. An open system if a personality consciousness experiences outside his perceived boundary, a closed system when a person is not yet cosmic conscious. Physics, the study of material facts, can postulate a a unified whole; however, all the study indicate the physical whole is a closed system, and the Urantia Papers tell us the physical creation is not infinite. And further, the papers indicate non-personal reality is limited. So to really experience infinity, one must go beyond material facts and mathematics which order things by numerical values.

Personality is a very interesting to study. We can order personality by types: For example creator personalities are higher than creature personalities. However, within the same type, we can not order. I can not say Bart is of higher order than TonyMa in term of personality. But I can say Bart is better at chaos than TonyMa. So the order can be had according to specific aspect. There is no overall ordering within type.


Energies: physical, mindal and spiritual can all be ordered. Physical facts can be ordered numerically. Mindal meanings can be ordered according to wisdom of living, and spiritual values are ordered according to closeness to the source of Divinity. The most interesting is the mindal meanings, the results of actual living. There is no limit to them. And actual living can not be without personalities. Facts and values seem to be limited.

In essence, the actual infinity is played out between limited facts and limited values by volitional personalities in unlimited meanings through actual living.

Please understand, limited facts means limited in mathematical order of reality; and limited values mean the highest attainment of Deity at each given universe age for a finite personality is limited.


Last edited by TonyMa on Sat May 22, 2010 7:09 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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(Bart) I more or less regret my previous reply.. We had a good discussion on pattern and energy and personality. However, when you say that my term ‘energy-pattern’ means something different than ‘a pattern of energy’, I think that’s a bit far fetched and it distracts from the constructive discussion. I also often use the term ‘free-will’, whereas TUB only uses the terms ‘free will’ and ‘freewill’. But you never complained about that.

(Bonita) It's a matter of grammar Bart. It is proper to use either free will or freewill as a noun, but free-will is used as an adjective. There is no definition for the word energy-pattern; you made it up to combine the aspects of both energy and pattern. There are energy patterns, but no energy-pattern.

(Bart)Then you said: “Personality is not a combination of energy and pattern. Personality is the pattern of identity, but it is not pattern as defined in the Foreword. [..] the word "pattern" in the Foreword means the original from which copies are made.” I don’t think I agree.

(Bonita)It doesn't matter if you agree or not Bart. The text says that pattern is the master from which copies are made.

Quote:
0.6.13 Pattern is a master design from which copies are made.


(Bart) I understood that “Personality is superimposed upon energy, and it is associated only with living energy systems; identity can be associated with nonliving energy patterns.” (0:5.4)

(Bonita) Personality and pattern are two different things, pattern and identity are two different things and personality and identity are two different things. Personality is associated only with living energy; identity is associated with living and nonliving energy. Pattern pervades everything, personality, identity, living, nonliving and all forms of energy. But pattern is pattern and nothing else.

Quote:
0.6.10 PATTERN can be projected as material, spiritual, or mindal, or any combination of these energies. It can pervade personalities, identities, entities, or nonliving matter. But pattern is pattern and remains pattern; only copies are multiplied.


(Bart) Here you exactly describe a fractal organization! Hence my question, did you ever take a good look at these fractal images? Of course I know you have, but I wonder if we see them in quite the same way..

(Bonita) Yes we see them the same way, but you have applied them to everything that exists, actual and potential, and I haven't.

(Bart) Finally, I admit that my statement “No one can tell me anything new about absolute unity” was provocative.. Sorry about that.. :| But really, philosophically, absolute unity is simply Absolute Unity; ONE; a singular point. What more can there be told about absolute unity?

(Bonita) We don't know if absolute unity is a singular point. That is mathematical logic and nothing else. There is nothing in TUB to suggest that absolute unity is defined as such. In fact the word "singular" never shows up in the context of the Absolute. The following is the closest we get to a discussion of the word "singular" and it is in regards to function.

Quote:
34.6.2 Although Divinity may be plural in manifestation, in human experience Deity is singular, always one. Neither is spiritual ministry plural in human experience. Regardless of plurality of origin, all spirit influences are one in function. Indeed they are one, being the spirit ministry of God the Sevenfold in and to the creatures of the grand universe; and as creatures grow in appreciation of, and receptivity for, this unifying ministry of the spirit, it becomes in their experience the ministry of God the Supreme.


(Bart) Note that I am not talking about experiencing absolute unity. And after all, absolute unity is the basic philosophical postulate of TUB.

(Bonita) TUB has very little to say about absolute unity, and it is not the purpose of the book. The following is about all that is written about absolute unity:

Quote:
1.7.6 And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. “The Lord God is one.” Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God’s bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father’s personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.

2.6.7 In the Paradise Trinity there is absolute unity despite the eternal identities of the co-ordinates of God.

56:9.1 The Unqualified Absolute and the Deity Absolute are unified in the Universal Absolute. The Absolutes are co-ordinated in the Ultimate, conditioned in the Supreme, and time-space modified in God the Sevenfold. On subinfinite levels there are three Absolutes, but in infinity they appear to be one. On Paradise there are three personalizations of Deity, but in the Trinity they are one.

56:9.2 The major philosophic proposition of the master universe is this: Did the Absolute (the three Absolutes as one in infinity) exist before the Trinity? and is the Absolute ancestral to the Trinity? or is the Trinity antecedent to the Absolute?

56:9.3 Is the Unqualified Absolute a force presence independent of the Trinity? Does the presence of the Deity Absolute connote the unlimited function of the Trinity? and is the Universal Absolute the final function of the Trinity, even a Trinity of Trinities?

56:9.4 On first thought, a concept of the Absolute as ancestor to all things—even the Trinity—seems to afford transitory satisfaction of consistency gratification and philosophic unification, but any such conclusion is invalidated by the actuality of the eternity of the Paradise Trinity. We are taught, and we believe, that the Universal Father and his Trinity associates are eternal in nature and existence. There is, then, but one consistent philosophic conclusion, and that is: The Absolute is, to all universe intelligences, the impersonal and co-ordinate reaction of the Trinity (of Trinities) to all basic and primary space situations, intrauniversal and extrauniversal. To all personality intelligences of the grand universe the Paradise Trinity forever stands in finality, eternity, supremacy, and ultimacy and, for all practical purposes of personal comprehension and creature realization, as absolute.


(Bart) But you said earlier that you don’t reject chaos as a possible model of the coexistence of finite and infinite reality. So I sincerely wonder why you apparently don’t recognize or agree that fractal self-organization in a chaotic dynamical system exactly complies with TUB’s concept of (hierarchical) energy pattern (or dynamical structure)..

(Bonita) No, I said that I don't reject chaos as a possible model for finite reality, but never for infinite reality, despite the fact that the theory involves mathematical infinity. It cannot explain the Trinity nor the existence of the personal and impersonal, the living and nonliving, consciousness and absence of consciousness, free will and absence of free will, and what of eternity? It's a mathematical formula with usefulness in the material world, not in the spiritual world.

Quote:
106:7.1 Some of the difficulties in forming concepts of infinite reality integration are inherent in the fact that all such ideas embrace something of the finality of universal development, some kind of an experiential realization of all that could ever be. And it is inconceivable that quantitative infinity could ever be completely realized in finality. Always there must remain unexplored possibilities in the three potential Absolutes which no quantity of experiential development could ever exhaust. Eternity itself, though absolute, is not more than absolute.

106.9.4 The concept of the unification of all reality, be it in this or any other universe age, is basically twofold: existential and experiential. Such a unity is in process of experiential realization in the Trinity of Trinities, but the degree of the apparent actualization of this threefold Trinity is directly proportional to the disappearance of the qualifications and imperfections of reality in the cosmos. But total integration of reality is unqualifiedly and eternally and existentially present in the Paradise Trinity, within which, at this very universe moment, infinite reality is absolutely unified.


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It seems to me that pattern can occur without personality since it can be projected onto nonliving (unconscious) matter, but personality cannot occur without pattern.


I disagree that personality cannot occur without pattern. It is true that a personalty can not manifest without a living pattern/vehicle. It is said a personality is absolute unique. It is said the Father is the gravity center of all personalities. It is said the personality of one who refueses to survive is absorbed in the personality of the Supreme like a drop of water into an ocean. It is said that the Adjsuter and personality are changeless, and the stuff between is ever changing. It is said that nobody knows where personality is between the time of death and resurrection.

Due to lack of better term, I have to say personality is a substence detectable by subinfinite personalities only when superimposed upon a living vehicle. I think the three original Deity personalities recognize personality as one of the basic substences of actual existence, just like matter energy, mind energy, and spirit energy.

It is true that the pre-personal Adjusters study projected living vehicles before the indwelling. The basic fact is that they can not study substence of free-will directly; otherwise, volition would be fake in reality.

It can be speculated that the Father Infinite fragmentizes the substence of volition as bestowed personalities. I think the TUB avoided this type of statement so that there is no conflict with the fragmentation of pre-personal parts of the Father.

It is also interesting, that the Tub did not say the Father is the gravity center of the Father Fragments. From this we can speculate that Father Fragments are pre-personality, pre-spirit, pre-mind and pre-matter.

The fundamental problem with personality is that it can not be mathematically measured, philosophically qualified and spiritually evaluated. This only indicates personality is of higher order substance than the other three. Even the Pre-personal Fragments of the Father wish to fuse with this substence.

Of course, we are not the substence of personality. Each of us is a composite of identies identified by a personality. Under the guidence of the indwelling Spirit, the personality+the living vehicle may learn to unify all the worthy identities.


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TonyMa wrote:
Of course, we are not the substence of personality. Each of us is a composite of identies identified by a personality. Under the guidence of the indwelling Spirit, the personality+the living vehicle may learn to unify all the worthy identities.


I'm not sure I'm following you TonyMa. Maybe it's the language barrier, I don't know.

We have a personality which is eternal, regardless of whether or not we choose eternity or not. Our identity, however, is transitory. Our hope for eternal identity lies with the soul, which is the joint creation of the personality and the Thought Adjuster. The Thought Adjuster holds the key to our eternal identity and we hold the key to the Adjuster's eternal personality. It's a win-win situation, and more evidence of the beauty in the master design of creation.


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Okay, maybe I should say the self each of us has now is not unified-we have internal conflicts or we hold conflicting thoughts/habits/inheritances. The unified self will be after fusion.

Quote:
P.1224 - §0 the ideals of a superior people crossed by the instincts of an inferior race; the high purposes of a great mind antagonized by the urge of a primitive inheritance; the long-distance view of a far-seeing Monitor counteracted by the nearsightedness of a creature of time; the progressive plans of an ascending being modified by the desires and longings of a material nature; the flashes of universe intelligence cancelled by the chemical-energy mandates of the evolving race; the urge of angels opposed by the emotions of an animal; the training of an intellect annulled by the tendencies of instinct; the experience of the individual opposed by the accumulated propensities of the race; the aims of the best overshadowed by the drift of the worst; the flight of genius neutralized by the gravity of mediocrity; the progress of the good retarded by the inertia of the bad; the art of the beautiful besmirched by the presence of evil; the buoyancy of health neutralized by the debility of disease; the fountain of faith polluted by the poisons of fear; the spring of joy embittered by the waters of sorrow; the gladness of anticipation disillusioned by the bitterness of realization; the joys of living ever threatened by the sorrows of death. Such a life on such a planet! And yet, because of the ever-present help and urge of the Thought Adjuster, this soul did achieve a fair degree of happiness and success and has even now ascended to the judgment halls of mansonia."


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