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I enjoy philosophical discussion which is supermathematical, but can not work without mathematics. Mortal personality has two functions going when bestowed upon a living vehicle: Decision making and unifying that which have been identified via the living vehicle. The Mystery Monitor is Spirit plus: pure spirit and pure energy plus indwelling experiences - pure purpose and pure mathematics plus divine wisdom.

Mind is the arena used by personality where decisions are made on what identities are worthy of unifying for the self under the guidance of pure purpose and pure mathematics plus divine wisdom.

It is probably true that all mortal mathematical geniuses have every experienced Monitors with the pre-knowledge the mortal vehicles contain greater potentials to express mathematics through mortal mind.

Well, it is said God is love, but love is not God. Mathematics, True Philosophy, Spirits are originated from God, but unity of them is not God.


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TonyMa wrote:
...You keep dragging the teaching of Jesus from the Urantia Papers down to the level your chaos philosophy which only concerns with the mathematical/scientific understanding of this age. Mathematical understanding of man is evolutionary, it is not going to stay at chaos level even though you claim it is the holy grail. Mathematical dynamic plus philosophical understanding of infinity do not explain the evolution. I do not how many times I have to repeat myself about personal spiritual experience with Deity which is the only way to open your spiritual consciousness that you as a self can be liberated from the fetter of mathematics(matter, science theory) and coordination(mind, philosophical understanding).
Hi Tony,

I didn’t say that a chaos theory of reality “is the holy grail”. I said that a theory of quantum gravity is the holy grail of physics, and a chaos theory is a possible theory or philosophy of quantum gravity. Such a model proposes that all (quantum) reality can be seen as a partial or finite projection of the infinite oscillation of a single point in space. Everything (including all experiential material, mindal and spiritual reality) may then exist as partial consciousness within this point, which is thus the origin of life the universe and everything. Nevertheless, in absolute reality only a single oscillating point exists, which must be total consciousness or God as the Unqualified Absolute.

As you may see, we cannot have a theory of quantum reality without incorporating a mechanism which exactly explains what human consciousness is. And in doing so we arrive at a theory of absolute unity. In this theory, there can exist only one type of fundamental ‘stuff’ or energy or consciousness if you will. Everything, material, mindal, and spiritual, exists as different types of projected patterns of the same stuff within the same unitary oscillation, which can be said to pervade and control all reality.

In this thread, I attempted to relate this philosophy to The Urantia Book. I did this by analysis of many TUB concepts and statements and by pointing out how it all appears to agree with the theory. Now you keep telling me that I am wrong because your religious experiences indicate that matter, mind and spirit are actually made of different stuff and because somehow unity is something different from TUB’s concept of the original I AM, and personality is actually instable and spirit is stable. Well, I’m sorry, but I cannot just take your word for that. You have to come up with explicit TUB quotations to back up these ideas. There is no reason to assume that any level of (spiritual) experience can reveal the absolute truth of reality. Moreover, according to TUB, only the Son and the Spirit may truly know the Father as infinite and absolute. All subinfinite experience remains partial, fragmented.

Finally, I agree with you that “personal spiritual experience with Deity is the only way to open your spiritual consciousness”. But that is not the point. I am interested here in what human (material, mindal, and spiritual) experience actually is! This cannot be revealed by human experience itself. That question can only be answered by correlating science and religion through metaphysics and revelation:
Quote:
(1139.1) 103:7.9 The science of the material world enables man to control, and to some extent dominate, his physical environment. The religion of the spiritual experience is the source of the fraternity impulse which enables men to live together in the complexities of the civilization of a scientific age. Metaphysics, but more certainly revelation, affords a common meeting ground for the discoveries of both science and religion and makes possible the human attempt logically to correlate these separate but interdependent domains of thought into a well-balanced philosophy of scientific stability and religious certainty.

Greetings, Bart


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Mike C. wrote:
It certainly would be presumptuous of me to attempt to provide a definition of personality, but you all's in depth study has given me an idea.

And that's it, that personality is an IDEA--or the projection of a unique concept.

This is the only way I can think of that personality can be changeless in the presence of change.

if this is so, then pattern does not configure personality, personality is antecedent to pattern.

The Idea in the mind of God is static the PROJECTION of it constitutes personality--or another way of saying it may be that personalities primary function is the conveyance of concept of what a being IS TO BE--we choose to self REALize this concept or not.
Hi Mike,

A bit late, but I found this..
Quote:
118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displace space, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern — the reality — of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.

What do you think?.. :)

Greetings, Bart


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Finally, I agree with you that “personal spiritual experience with Deity is the only way to open your spiritual consciousness”. But that is not the point. I am interested here in what human (material, mindal, and spiritual) experience actually is! This cannot be revealed by human experience itself. That question can only be answered by correlating science and religion through metaphysics and revelation:



This is exactly we are different. I am telling you that you are nowhere near what human experience actually is with chaos theory until you feelingly experience the indwelling Father, the literal presence of Creator, Controller, Upholder within each of us.

No amount of analysis/study of literal knowledge, be they science, religion, metaphysics and revelation can replace the authority of personal experience. Albeit there are always progressively better literal descriptions of what human experiences are as evolution continues. From intellectual perspective, I would say your philosophy is far inferior than the philosophy presented in the Urantia Papers. There will be better philosophies than what have been presented in TUB.

Incidentally, from intellectual perspective, you do not have enough overall understanding of the Urantia Papers, and you scoop something here and there to support your philosophy. That is not a very good thing to do. I hope you can sincerely read the Foreword several times and try hard to understand what it says. I wish for you to have an overall understanding of the Foreword, and then assess whether it is in agreement with your philosophy. You really do not have to read the whole book, however, the meat is tastier than bones.

Here is a confession, when I first read the Urantia Papers, the Foreword was over my head.


p.s. Your philosophy is far simpler than the one presented in TUB. I understand in scientific philosophy, the simpler the better. But that can not be generalized to every experience. The biggest obstacle of religious experience is that it can not be literally related to another person unless the other person has a similar experience. As individuals are unique, so religious experiences can not be generalized and scientifically catagorized. Therefore, scientists are not going to touch religious experiences unless they stand on the ground of materialism or pantheism, which I call one-mediumism. Your philosophy as far as I can tell is a marriage of materialism and pantheism. As a joke, I would say this is a same sex marriage, no offspring is going to come out of this union. Homosexuality is a sin against Deity.

When mechanism is needed, your philosophy reaches for material and scientific explanation of mathematics, when mathematics can not work out, your philosophy conjures up pantheism Absolute Unity. This is the essence of the philosophical infinite oscillation between materialism and pantheism, Humorously, an eternal mutual masturbation, not an infinite creation.

Why do not you liberate yourself from the philosophical oscillation between material consciousness and mind consciousness?


Last edited by TonyMa on Thu May 27, 2010 11:41 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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TonyMa wrote:
Incidentally, from intellectual perspective, you do not have enough overall understanding of the Urantia Papers, and you scoop something here and there to support your philosophy. That is not a very good thing to do. I hope you can sincerely read the Foreword several times and try hard to understand what it says. I wish for you to have an overall understanding of the Foreword, and then assess whether it is in agreement with your philosophy. You really do not have to read the whole book, however, the meat is tastier than bones.
Hi Tony,

I read the Foreword several times, and I don’t see any disagreement with a chaos philosophy of reality. If you do, please point it out to me. But I think you can’t, because if you could, you probably would have done that already.. I may have some problems with the meat, but I’m quite sure about the bones of TUB..

Greetings, Bart


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I guess, without liberating yourself from the philosophical oscillation between material consciousness and mind consciousness, you will never be unable to spiritually grasp what is said in the Foreword. Choice of the personality is sovereign. I will rest my case. I still cannot resist, intellectual bones and meats are not my point, experiencing the presence of the indwelling Father is. So far you have done you best to resist.


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Hi Tony,

I don’t need your (spiritual) approval. In fact, judged by the inconsistencies in your overall argument (not to say the amount of nonsense) and the general tone of your recent posts in this thread, I’m seriously beginning to doubt whether you have any genuine spiritual experience yourself. You suggest that you spiritually grasp TUB’s foreword. Are you kidding me? And your ultimate argument that I can’t see the error of a chaos theory because I didn’t spiritually experience the truth within, is unacceptable and childish. By the way, any personal spiritual experience of the indwelling Father would very much support a chaos philosophy. Can’t you see that by now?

I think you just intend to disagree with this theory, no matter what arguments I present. So I don’t see any further point in continuing our discussion. Anyway, I wish you good luck with your personal interpretation of TUB (and your erroneous notions of materialism and pantheism). I’m not angry, just disappointed.

All the best, Bart


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Hi Bart,

A theory at the best is a partial portrait of reality. Fortunately a picture is not reality. Otherwise, all Truth seekers would be filled with through understanding of all existing philosophical ideas.

Everybody is free to have his personal philosophy. Intellectual uniformity is not required. Even spiritual experiences are partial in nature as far as reality is concerned. Discussion with you helped me of my own understanding of reality. I am happy with that. I think I have milked most of the chaos philosophy which I have pondered long before its presentation here.

Dead philosophical ideas are sure not Living Water as far as personal experience is concerned.

Greetings TonyMa


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Hi Tony,

TonyMa wrote:
A theory at the best is a partial portrait of reality. Fortunately a picture is not reality. Otherwise, all Truth seekers would be filled with through understanding of all existing philosophical ideas.
I think a theory or philosophy of reality can be complete. If reality consists of a single, conscious, oscillating point or singularity in absolute space, then that is your complete theory of reality. And a chaotic dynamical system might indicate how such an oscillation produces reality as we perceive/experience it, and as TUB describes it..

TonyMa wrote:
Dead philosophical ideas are sure not Living Water as far as personal experience is concerned.
I don’t think an idea is a dead thing. The written down formulation of an idea obviously is, but the actual reality of an idea must be a living pattern in our mind, although it may not occupy space (118:3.7)..

Anyway, I’m glad to hear that our discussion at least contributed to your own personal understanding of reality. I wonder how.. :)

Greetings, Bart


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