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Greetings to all,

The Infinite Spirit (or the Third Person or Conjoint Creator) is the original source of human mind (and consciousness). As such, our mind is responsive to the mind-gravity circuit emanating from the Third Person. Nevertheless, TUB tells us that mortal minds are not perfect:
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(102.8 ) 9:5.2 In the domain of created mind the Third Person, with his co-ordinate and subordinate associates, rules supreme. The realms of creature mind are of exclusive origin in the Third Source and Center; he is the bestower of mind. Even the Father fragments find it impossible to indwell the minds of men until the way has been properly prepared for them by the mind action and spiritual function of the Infinite Spirit.

(103.3) 9:5.5 Because the Third Person is the source of mind, do not presume to reckon that all phenomena of mind are divine. Human intellect is rooted in the material origin of the animal races. Universe intelligence is no more a true revelation of God who is mind than is physical nature a true revelation of the beauty and harmony of Paradise. Perfection is in nature, but nature is not perfect. The Conjoint Creator is the source of mind, but mind is not the Conjoint Creator.

Furthermore, TUB suggests that, as far as our minds divert from mind-gravity, the imperfection of finite mind function may result from “some little understood parallel unpredictability circuit”:
Quote:
(104.6) 9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.

Moreover, such unpredictability (or randomness) of mind function will then be greatly facilitated by the so called “time lag” inherent in the Spirit divinity response to imperfection:
Quote:
(376.5) 34:3.2 The Infinite Spirit pervades all space and indwells the circle of eternity. Still, in their personal contact with the children of time, the personalities of the Infinite Spirit must often reckon with temporal elements, though not so much with space. Many mind ministries ignore space but suffer a time lag in effecting co-ordination of diverse levels of universe reality. A Solitary Messenger is virtually independent of space except that time is actually required in traveling from one location to another; and there are similar entities unknown to you.

And, indeed, TUB indicates that this “time lag”, and the resulting imperfection of mind function, has a “creative function in creature evolution”! It thus seems that we are designed to (randomly) explore new possibilities of perfection, thereby entering into an “evolutionary partnership with the Creator” instead of just being created by the Creator:
Quote:
(1159.5) 105:6.5 4. The divinity response to the imperfection inherent in the time lagof evolution is disclosed in the compensating presence of God the Sevenfold, by whose activities that which is perfecting is integrated with both the perfect and the perfected. This time lag is inseparable from evolution, which is creativity in time. Because of it, as well as for other reasons, the almighty power of the Supreme is predicated on the divinity successes of God the Sevenfold. This time lag makes possible creature participation in divine creation by permitting creature personalities to become partners with Deity in the attainment of maximum development. Even the material mind of the mortal creature thus becomes partner with the divine Adjuster in the dualization of the immortal soul. God the Sevenfold also provides techniques of compensation for the experiential limitations of inherent perfection as well as compensating the preascension limitations of imperfection.

(1163.14) 106:1.1 The primary or spirit-origin phases of finite reality find immediate expression on creature levels as perfect personalities and on universe levels as the perfect Havona creation. Even experiential Deity is thus expressed in the spirit person of God the Supreme in Havona. But the secondary, evolutionary, time-and-matter-conditioned phases of the finite become cosmically integrated only as a result of growth and attainment. Eventually all secondary or perfecting finites are to attain a level equal to that of primary perfection, but such destiny is subject to a time delay, a constitutive superuniverse qualification which is not genetically found in the central creation. (We know of the existence of tertiary finites, but the technique of their integration is as yet unrevealed.)

(1164.1) 106:1.2 This superuniverse time lag, this obstacle to perfection attainment, provides for creature participation in evolutionary growth. It thus makes it possible for the creature to enter into partnership with the Creator in the evolution of that selfsame creature. And during these times of expanding growth the incomplete is correlated with the perfect through the ministry of God the Sevenfold.

Now, what I don’t understand is that TUB authors are puzzled about this unpredictability of finite mind concerning its relation to the evolving creature, whereas they have no problem recognizing the time lag in mind-gravity response as having an evolutionary creative function. Creativity implies unpredictability. A mind-gravity time lag without intermediate unpredictability wouldn’t be creative. And doesn’t free-will also imply unpredictability?

Anyhow, the authors do seem to acknowledge that unpredictability has a creative function, since it is “undoubtedly the earmark of the developmental incompleteness of both the Supreme Being and the minds of all creatures”:
Quote:
(104.7) 9:6.9 Certain phases of the unpredictability of finite mind may be due to the incompleteness of the Supreme Being, and there is a vast zone of activities wherein the Conjoint Actor and the Universal Absolute may possibly be tangent. There is much about mind that is unknown, but of this we are sure: The Infinite Spirit is the perfect expression of the mind of the Creator to all creatures; the Supreme Being is the evolving expression of the minds of all creatures to their Creator.

(115.6) 10:7.4 We do not find the overcontrol of Supremacy to be wholly predictable. Furthermore, this unpredictability appears to be characterized by a certain developmental incompleteness, undoubtedly an earmark of the incompleteness of the Supreme and of the incompleteness of finite reaction to the Paradise Trinity.

So, as human mortals we appear to operate at some ‘frontline’ of creation. The unpredictability of our imperfect finite minds may then implement God’s creative search for perfection.. Just some thoughts..

Best regards, Bart


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A few questions Bart:

1. Why do you say that we are designed to randomly explore possibilities of perfection? How does the word random relate to unpredictability? I'm defining random as choise without forethought and/or method. Unpredictable choices can include forethought and/or method.

2. Where does it say that the TUB authors are puzzled by the unpredictability of finite mind? I read the word mind, not finite mind. The word mind covers more than finite; plus, in that quote, I think they're talking about the Universal Absolute as the source of unpredictability.

3. What makes you think that God is searching for perfection? I thought he is perfection. Aren't we the ones searching for perfection?

4. Does the fact that we are subjects of a certain amount of predestination fit into your overall schema?

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p1204:5  110:2.1  When Thought Adjusters indwell human minds, they bring with them the model careers, the ideal lives, as determined and foreordained by themselves and the Personalized Adjusters of Divinington, which have been certified by the Personalized Adjuster of Urantia. Thus they begin work with a definite and predetermined plan for the intellectual and spiritual development of their human subjects, but it is not incumbent upon any human being to accept this plan. You are all subjects of predestination, but it is not foreordained that you must accept this divine predestination; you are at full liberty to reject any part or all of the Thought Adjusters' program. It is their mission to effect such mind changes and to make such spiritual adjustments as you may willingly and intelligently authorize, to the end that they may gain more influence over the personality directionization; but under no circumstances do these divine Monitors ever take advantage of you or in any way arbitrarily influence you in your choices and decisions. The Adjusters respect your sovereignty of personality; they are always subservient to your will.


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Hi Bonita,

Good questions. Thanks. :)


Bonita wrote:
1. Why do you say that we are designed to randomly explore possibilities of perfection? How does the word random relate to unpredictability? I'm defining random as choise without forethought and/or method. Unpredictable choices can include forethought and/or method.

True unpredictability is equivalent to randomness. Unpredictability means that there is no way in terms of causation (causal inheritance) to determine in advance or predict the outcome of a process. I think, however, that the UB authors use the term unpredictability in the sense that a process (finite mind) is unpredictable for them as observers. As such it might as well be random. But since everything ultimately exists within the (thus unobservable) First Source and Center, they conjecture that a co-ordinate Absolute must be the cause of unpredictability. Also note that since everything ultimately exists and has its cause in the First Source and Center, true randomness can’t exist in reality.


Bonita wrote:
2. Where does it say that the TUB authors are puzzled by the unpredictability of finite mind? I read the word mind, not finite mind. The word mind covers more than finite; plus, in that quote, I think they're talking about the Universal Absolute as the source of unpredictability.

Paper 9 section 6 talks about The Mind-Gravity Circuit. Paragraph 9:6.8 mentions that “not all the observable function of mind is predictable”. Observable functions are finite effects, not absolute causes. Thus, the authors seem to be puzzled by the unpredictability of finite mind. (This also fits in the overall discourse of Paper 9). Absolutes, such as Absolute (Infinite) Mind, can’t be observed. So the authors can but conjecture that, e.g., the Universal Absolute may be the source of unpredictability.


Bonita wrote:
3. What makes you think that God is searching for perfection? I thought he is perfection. Aren't we the ones searching for perfection?

The problem (as always) is our alleged free-will. If God is perfect and if we are part of God, then how can we have free-will? Free-will implies the possibility of divergence from perfection or imperfection (or evil). God as the First Source and Center, may be existentially perfect, but as the Supreme Being (the evolving expression of the minds of all finite creatures), he is not experientially perfect (or complete). This tension seems to be resolved by the Universal Absolute. In this way God is searching for perfection; resolving the tension between the finite and the infinite. And perhaps finite creature free-will or unpredictability plays an important role in the process..


Bonita wrote:
4. Does the fact that we are subjects of a certain amount of predestination fit into your overall schema?

Yes. Predestination may be equivalent to mind-gravity.


Greetings, Bart


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Bart wrote:
Yes. Predestination may be equivalent to mind-gravity.


Mind-gravity draws intellect, spirit-gravity draws spirit, personality-gravity draws personality, and all are required to attain Deity.

Quote:
14.2.8 Likewise does the Infinite Spirit draw all intellectual values Paradiseward. Throughout the central universe the mind gravity of the Infinite Spirit functions in liaison with the spirit gravity of the Eternal Son, and these together constitute the combined urge of the ascendant souls to find God, to attain Deity, to achieve Paradise, and to know the Father.

9:6.3 Mind gravity can operate independently of material and spiritual gravity, but wherever and whenever the latter two impinge, mind gravity always functions. When all three are associated, personality gravity may embrace the material creature—physical or morontial, finite or absonite. But irrespective of this, the endowment of mind even in impersonal beings qualifies them to think and endows them with consciousness despite the total absence of personality.


I don't think that predestination has anything to do with any of these gravities. The Thought Adjusters foreordain an ideal life for each of us, and although they work in perfect concert with all gravity circuits, they simply have foreknowledge of the perfect ideal for each of us. We have the relative freedom to make the choices necessary to fulfill that perfect plan, which is why there is a time lag. We often need more than our short mortal lives to mature our free-will in order to comply with that perfect ideal. Within that time lag however, I agree that spirit, mind and personality gravities urge us along.

Quote:
118.7.1 The function of Creator will and creature will, in the grand universe, operates within the limits, and in accordance with the possibilities, established by the Master Architects. This foreordination of these maximum limits does not, however, in the least abridge the sovereignty of creature will within these boundaries. Neither does ultimate foreknowledge — full allowance for all finite choice — constitute an abrogation of finite volition. A mature and farseeing human being might be able to forecast the decision of some younger associate most accurately, but this foreknowledge takes nothing away from the freedom and genuineness of the decision itself. The Gods have wisely limited the range of the action of immature will, but it is true will, nonetheless, within these defined limits.


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Okay Bonita!! I think I misunderstood your original question about predestination. Ultimately, there is no absolute predestination, obviously because there is free-will and unpredictability..

What do you think of my answers to your questions 1, 2, and 3? :)

Greetings, bart


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Let's do one at a time. I mostly agree with you but I seem to always get hung up in the language because I'm not sure you and I use words in the same way. I'm using a literal definition of random and I'm wondering if you're using a mathematical definition of random, but let's see.

Bart wrote:
Bonita wrote:
1. Why do you say that we are designed to randomly explore possibilities of perfection? How does the word random relate to unpredictability? I'm defining random as choise without forethought and/or method. Unpredictable choices can include forethought and/or method.

True unpredictability is equivalent to randomness. Unpredictability means that there is no way in terms of causation (causal inheritance) to determine in advance or predict the outcome of a process. I think, however, that the UB authors use the term unpredictability in the sense that a process (finite mind) is unpredictable for them as observers. As such it might as well be random. But since everything ultimately exists within the (thus unobservable) First Source and Center, they conjecture that a co-ordinate Absolute must be the cause of unpredictability. Also note that since everything ultimately exists and has its cause in the First Source and Center, true randomness can’t exist in reality.


I think that the authors mean that when they observe human behavior, they see the obvious "better way", but we do not often choose it because our meanings and values are not in alignment with the "better way". What we do is frequently based upon emotion because of false information or false processing of information, none of which can be predicted by our spiritual superiors due to lack of affinity with these finite elements of decision making. So, your third sentence sounds right to me.

The forth sentence, I can understand but don't fully agree with because to be random means that there is no consistency, pattern or more specifically a meaningful relation to the cause. I think that there clearly is a relation to cause, but the relationship to it is in error. In other words, what may appear to be random is not; it is merely an immature or evil reaction resulting in behavior inconsistent with the Father's will.

So with the above clarifications, I think I can say that I agree with you. :P


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Bart wrote:
Bonita wrote:
2. Where does it say that the TUB authors are puzzled by the unpredictability of finite mind? I read the word mind, not finite mind. The word mind covers more than finite; plus, in that quote, I think they're talking about the Universal Absolute as the source of unpredictability.

Paper 9 section 6 talks about The Mind-Gravity Circuit. Paragraph 9:6.8 mentions that “not all the observable function of mind is predictable”. Observable functions are finite effects, not absolute causes. Thus, the authors seem to be puzzled by the unpredictability of finite mind. (This also fits in the overall discourse of Paper 9). Absolutes, such as Absolute (Infinite) Mind, can’t be observed. So the authors can but conjecture that, e.g., the Universal Absolute may be the source of unpredictability.


I'm not actually disagreeing with you here; I'm trying to tease out more information on this because there is so much that we don't know and I'm hoping to learn something myself. Here's the full quote:

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9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.

9:6.9 Certain phases of the unpredictability of finite mind may be due to the incompleteness of the Supreme Being, and there is a vast zone of activities wherein the Conjoint Actor and the Universal Absolute may possibly be tangent. There is much about mind that is unknown, but of this we are sure: The Infinite Spirit is the perfect expression of the mind of the Creator to all creatures; the Supreme Being is the evolving expression of the minds of all creatures to their Creator.


The mind-gravity circuit is absolute (9:6.1). The Universal Absolute is both the Qualified and Unqualified Absolute. The Qualified Absolute is the Deity Absolute which resulted from the volition of the Universal Father. The fact that a function of the Universal Absolute can result in unpredictability implies a relationship (cause/effect) between the volitional and non-volitional (personal/impersonal) aspects of the Absolute. Although we cannot observe this relationship within the Universal Absolute, the effects of it are observable to finite mind as unpredictability as they result in the evolution of the Supreme, which includes both personal and impersonal aspects of experiential Deity.

Quote:
0.11.10 3. The Universal Absolute, we logically deduce, was inevitable in the Universal Father’s absolute freewill act of differentiating universe realities into deified and undeified — personalizable and nonpersonalizable — values. The Universal Absolute is the Deity phenomenon indicative of the resolution of the tension created by the freewill act of thus differentiating universe reality, and functions as the associative co-ordinator of these sum totals of existential potentialities.

0.11.14 The Universal Absolute is the potential of the static-dynamic Deity functionally realizable on time-eternity levels as finite-absolute values and as possible of experiential-existential approach. This incomprehensible aspect of Deity may be static, potential, and associative but is not experientially creative or evolutional as concerns the intelligent personalities now functioning in the master universe.

106.5.2 While this presentation deals primarily with the personal phases of the unification of the cosmos, it is nonetheless true that the impersonal aspects of the universe of universes are likewise destined to undergo unification as is illustrated by the power-personality synthesis now going on in connection with the evolution of the Supreme Being. The spirit-personal qualities of the Supreme are inseparable from the power prerogatives of the Almighty, and both are complemented by the unknown potential of Supreme mind. Neither can God the Ultimate as a person be considered apart from the other-than-personal aspects of Ultimate Deity. And on the absolute level the Deity and the Unqualified Absolutes are inseparable and indistinguishable in the presence of the Universal Absolute.


The authors are puzzled by the unpredictability of mind in this zone of time-eternity/finite-absolute values and experiential-existential approach, and they tell us that it is most likely due to the resolution of the associative coordination of differentiating reality by the absolute unity of the Universal Absolute. My guess is that the keywords here are "differentiating reality". While the Universal Absolute is static, everything within it is change due to the fact that a tension/relationship exists within it.

Since mind is the arena in which these events are observable, it is inevitable that although we do not see the cause, the effect is discernible within the Supreme. We know that mind-gravity is a law unto itself (9.6.6). We also know that the cosmic mind functions at its maximum where the greatest divergence between time-eternity/finite-absolute exists (9.6.7). Also, the infinite mind of the Infinite Spirit, along with the cosmic mind of the Seven Master Spirits, is in the process of evolving into the functioning, experiential supreme mind of the Supreme Being. When mind potentials become actuals, it means that the Supreme is evolving and this would logically involve some level of unpredictability observable in some level of mind due to its proposed tangential relationship to the Universal Absolute.

Quote:
9.7.4 The relationship between the finite cosmic mind and the divine absolute mind appears to be evolving in the experiential mind of the Supreme.


We also know that the perfect volition of the Universal Father does adjust, which may appear to be unpredictable from the finite perspective.

Quote:
12.7.3 It is repugnant to the divine nature to suffer any sort of deterioration or ever to permit the execution of any purely personal act in an inferior way. It should be made clear, however, that, if, in the divinity of any situation, in the extremity of any circumstance, in any case where the course of supreme wisdom might indicate the demand for different conduct — if the demands of perfection might for any reason dictate another method of reaction, a better one, then and there would the all-wise God function in that better and more suitable way. That would be the expression of a higher law, not the reversal of a lower law.

12:7.6 And all this steadfastness of conduct and uniformity of action is personal, conscious, and highly volitional, for the great God is not a helpless slave to his own perfection and infinity. God is not a self-acting automatic force; he is not a slavish law-bound power. God is neither a mathematical equation nor a chemical formula. He is a freewill and primal personality. He is the Universal Father, a being surcharged with personality and the universal fount of all creature personality.


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Bonita wrote:
... The forth sentence, I can understand but don't fully agree with because to be random means that there is no consistency, pattern or more specifically a meaningful relation to the cause. I think that there clearly is a relation to cause, but the relationship to it is in error. In other words, what may appear to be random is not; it is merely an immature or evil reaction resulting in behavior inconsistent with the Father's will.

So with the above clarifications, I think I can say that I agree with you. :P

A better term for 'unpredictability' or 'randomness' here, might be 'qualified-unpredictability' or 'pseudo-randomness', which is similar (if not equivalent) to the term 'complexity' or 'chaos', as it is defined in (mathematical) nonlinear dynamic systems theory. :mrgreen: Then there will definitely be "consistency and pattern" present in seemingly unpredictable finite minds; similar to the apparent (self-similar, fractal geometrical) 'creative order' within chaotic dynamical systems.. :)


Bonita wrote:

We also know that the perfect volition of the Universal Father does adjust, which may appear to be unpredictable from the finite perspective. ...

If the above chaos theoretical interpretation of finite unpredictability of absolute infinite dynamics is correct, then unpredictability is actually the norm in finite reality. But so is absolute determinism! The unpredictable evolution of a chaotic dynamical system is completely and perfectly deterministic.. So the Fatherly adjustments that you speak of are not explained by a chaos theory of reality. Thus, ultimately, something much more subtle than chaos must account for absolute – as well as finite volition. I guess, God is the ultimate Magician.. :)


Greetings, Bart


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Bart wrote:
God is the ultimate Magician.. :)

I'm thinking he's more like the ultimate Mystery. :D

Knew you'd find a way to get chaos theory into this discussion :mrgreen:


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Bonita wrote:
I'm thinking he's more like the ultimate Mystery. :D

He is a Person.. So I prefer a personal term like Magician.. ;)


Bonita wrote:
Knew you'd find a way to get chaos theory into this discussion :mrgreen:

You were (more or less) set up.. :mrgreen: :wink:

Greetings, Bart


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A magician may be a person, but a person who does magic, and I don't see a role for magic in the cosmos. There is a role for mystery, however. Perhaps God is the ultimate mystic? Personally, I know him as a Mystery Monitor. What sort of mystery do you suppose he's monitoring?

Quote:
1.4.1 4. The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds. The manner in which the Universal Father sojourns with the creatures of time is the most profound of all universe mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the mystery of mysteries.


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I never thought about Mystery Monitors as 'monitoring a mystery'. I always interpreted the phrase as Mysterious Monitors. :smile: But you may be right.. Anyhow, magic and mystery are related terms. But I agree that magic has a supernatural connotation which is probably unacceptable..

By the way, I don’t quite understand the reason why we are so mysteriously indwelled by the Adjusters. A fundamental premise of reality is that "God is all and in all (56:9.14)". And Adjusters are the "qualified absolute fragments of the mind of the Father (107:4.2)". But shouldn’t such fragments then already constitute the minds of all finite evolutionary will creatures? In other words, if God already is everything, then why the need for Mystery Monitors?
Quote:
(49.2) 3:3.3 God is possessed of unlimited power to know all things; his consciousness is universal. His personal circuit encompasses all personalities, and his knowledge of even the lowly creatures is supplemented indirectly through the descending series of divine Sons and directly through the indwelling Thought Adjusters. And furthermore, the Infinite Spirit is all the time everywhere present.

I suppose that the divine gift of Adjuster indwelling provides experiential help and confirmation in doing God’s will, without compromising in any way our independent personal free-will, which is in itself another great mystery..
Quote:
(49.3) 3:3.4 We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.

(49.4) 3:3.5 Omnipotence does not imply the power to do the nondoable, the ungodlike act. Neither does omniscience imply the knowing of the unknowable. But such statements can hardly be made comprehensible to the finite mind. The creature can hardly understand the range and limitations of the will of the Creator.

To my mind, the existence of finite individual consciousness and personal free-will (as part of God’s absolute consciousness and free-will) is at least the most apparent mystery of reality.. :)


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Just a few things Bart . . . too big a topic for a single post.
Bart wrote:
By the way, I don’t quite understand the reason why we are so mysteriously indwelled by the Adjusters. A fundamental premise of reality is that "God is all and in all (56:9.14)". And Adjusters are the "qualified absolute fragments of the mind of the Father (107:4.2)". But shouldn’t such fragments then already constitute the minds of all finite evolutionary will creatures? In other words, if God already is everything, then why the need for Mystery Monitors?


Adjusters are pre-personality, pre-will and pre-mind. They are absolute pure reality. The are qualified absolute fragments of God, not just the mind of God. God is more than mind and you have a fragment of this very God himself living within your God-given mind. Can't you see how incredible that is? God has put aside his personality, his mind and his will to be with you in order to reveal to you individually, you Bart, what love really is for you; reveal what true service is and who you, individually, are to become. Your God, puts aside himself in deference to you, how can this be? This is why God cannot be a fractal. Fractals are not selfless. Fractals do not give themselves completely to another. Fractals do not serve.

Bart wrote:
I suppose that the divine gift of Adjuster indwelling provides experiential help and confirmation in doing God’s will, without compromising in any way our independent personal free-will, which is in itself another great mystery..


The Adjuster does not provide experiential help. The existential Adjuster is gaining experience by indwelling an experiential evolutionary creature. Nor is his role to offer confirmation. He spiritualizes because he is spirit. He draws us near him out of love and by loving him in return, we become like him. And yes, he does this without any coercion; he does it with only love because the Adjuster is Love incarnate.

Bart wrote:
To my mind, the existence of finite individual consciousness and personal free-will (as part of God’s absolute consciousness and free-will) is at least the most apparent mystery of reality.. :)


To my mind, the greatest mystery is how God could possibly desire me so much. How is it that he would want to live with me for eternity, me a lowly and selfish animal who knows nothing of true love? How can he be so long-suffering and so completely devoted to me while daily facing my primitive, crude and stubbornly self-centered foibles. How can that be? How can he persist so lovingly amidst my gross errors? It is simply a miracle.


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Bonita wrote:
Bart wrote:
By the way, I don’t quite understand the reason why we are so mysteriously indwelled by the Adjusters. A fundamental premise of reality is that "God is all and in all (56:9.14)". And Adjusters are the "qualified absolute fragments of the mind of the Father (107:4.2)" But shouldn’t such fragments then already constitute the minds of all finite evolutionary will creatures? In other words, if God already is everything, then why the need for Mystery Monitors?

Adjusters are pre-personality, pre-will and pre-mind. They are absolute pure reality. The are qualified absolute fragments of God, not just the mind of God. God is more than mind and you have a fragment of this very God himself living within your God-given mind. …

You may be correct. The Adjuster is a qualified absolute (existential) fragment of God, not just of his Mind.. The reason I inserted “of the mind” in my short transcription of quote 107:4.2 (sorry for that), is that I think the essence of our human being (as finite will creatures) is but partial (fragmented) absolute Consciousness or Spirit or Mind. Thus I assumed that the Adjuster must also be partial absolute Mind or Spirit. But, indeed, that doesn’t necessarily exclude other absolutes.

However, the ‘qualifiedness’ of the Adjusters seems to concern only their fragmented limited nature. And that happens to be exactly what qualifies us as conscious finite space-time creatures! So my guess is that the Adjuster is the presence of some absolute dynamic energy-spirit pattern within our finite mind or being. Conscious attainment of that reality may then be equivalent to attaining God-consciousness..
Quote:
(1176.3) 107:0.3 God, having commanded man to be perfect, even as he is perfect, has descended as the Adjuster to become man’s experiential partner in the achievement of the supernal destiny which has been thus ordained. The fragment of God which indwells the mind of man is the absolute and unqualified assurance that man can find the Universal Father in association with this divine Adjuster, which came forth from God to find man and sonship him even in the days of the flesh.

(1177.3) 107:1.2 Though there are diverse opinions regarding the mode of the bestowal of Thought Adjusters, there exist no such differences concerning their origin; all are agreed that they proceed direct from the Universal Father, the First Source and Center. They are not created beings; they are fragmentized entities constituting the factual presence of the infinite God. Together with their many unrevealed associates, the Adjusters are undiluted and unmixed divinity, unqualified and unattenuated parts of Deity; they are of God, and as far as we are able to discern, they are God.

(1180.5) 107:4.2 The actual source of the Adjuster must be infinite, and before fusion with the immortal soul of an evolving mortal, the reality of the Adjuster must border on absoluteness. Adjusters are not absolutes in the universal sense, in the Deity sense, but they are probably true absolutes within the potentialities of their fragmented nature. They are qualified as to universality but not as to nature; in extensiveness they are limited, but in intensiveness of meaning, value, and fact they are absolute. For this reason we sometimes denominate the divine gifts as the qualified absolute fragments of the Father.



Bonita wrote:
… Your God, puts aside himself in deference to you, how can this be? This is why God cannot be a fractal. Fractals are not selfless. Fractals do not give themselves completely to another. Fractals do not serve.

Yes, God is not a fractal..
Quote:
(1176.3) 107:0.3 God, having commanded man to be perfect, even as he is perfect, has descended as the Adjuster to become man’s experiential partner in the achievement of the supernal destiny which has been thus ordained. The fragment of God which indwells the mind of man is the absolute and unqualified assurance that man can find the Universal Father in association with this divine Adjuster, which came forth from God to find man and sonship him even in the days of the flesh.

But allow me to give another discourse on chaos theory.. :)
Quote:
(637.1) 56:0.1 GOD is unity. Deity is universally co-ordinated. The universe of universes is one vast integrated mechanism which is absolutely controlled by one infinite mind. The physical, intellectual, and spiritual domains of universal creation are divinely correlated. The perfect and imperfect are truly interrelated, and therefore may the finite evolutionary creature ascend to Paradise in obedience to the Universal Father’s mandate: “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.”

“Be you perfect, even as I am perfect”. This is a perfect description of ‘hierarchical self-similarity’ and systemic ‘fractal self-organization’, as it is defined in chaos theory. In fact, the above quote exactly describes a chaotic system; i.e., a unitary dynamic system producing infinite self-similar order or structure as its finite phase-projections.

Yes, this sounds mechanical. But TUB does not deny that finite reality is first mechanical:
Quote:
(1301.6) 118:8.1 In the time-space creations, free will is hedged about with restraints, with limitations. Material-life evolution is first mechanical, then mind activated, and (after the bestowal of personality) it may become spirit directed. Organic evolution on the inhabited worlds is physically limited by the potentials of the original physical-life implantations of the Life Carriers.

And mechanisms are the product of mind, but the purpose of any mechanism is in its origin, not in its function. This is chaos theory:
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(1303.6) 118:9.5 Mechanisms are the products of mind, creative mind acting on and in cosmic potentials. Mechanisms are the fixed crystallizations of Creator thought, and they ever function true to the volitional concept that gave them origin. But the purposiveness of any mechanism is in its origin, not in its function.

And the basic universe mechanisms are fixed and nonvolitional!
Quote:
(1303.7) 118:9.6 These mechanisms should not be thought of as limiting the action of Deity; rather is it true that in these very mechanics Deity has achieved one phase of eternal expression. The basic universe mechanisms have come into existence in response to the absolute will of the First Source and Center, and they will therefore eternally function in perfect harmony with the plan of the Infinite; they are, indeed, the nonvolitional patterns of that very plan.

And a fundamental mechanism of chaos implies ultimate correlation and harmony of everything, or determinism or providence..
Quote:
(1305.5) 118:10.10 There is a providence in the evolving universes, and it can be discovered by creatures to just the extent that they have attained capacity to perceive the purpose of the evolving universes. Complete capacity to discern universe purposes equals the evolutionary completion of the creature and may otherwise be expressed as the attainment of the Supreme within the limits of the present state of the incomplete universes.

(1306.8 ) 118:10.19 Providence becomes increasingly discernible as men reach upward from the material to the spiritual. The attainment of completed spiritual insight enables the ascending personality to detect harmony in what was theretofore chaos. Even morontia mota represents a real advance in this direction.



Bonita wrote:
To my mind, the greatest mystery is how God could possibly desire me so much. How is it that he would want to live with me for eternity, me a lowly and selfish animal who knows nothing of true love? How can he be so long-suffering and so completely devoted to me while daily facing my primitive, crude and stubbornly self-centered foibles. How can that be? How can he persist so lovingly amidst my gross errors? It is simply a miracle.

I can only say that I am not absolutely sure of God's unselfish motive.. :)
Quote:
(1304.2) 118:9.9 God the Supreme is the personalization of all universe experience, the focalization of all finite evolution, the maximation of all creature reality, the consummation of cosmic wisdom, the embodiment of the harmonious beauties of the galaxies of time, the truth of cosmic mind meanings, and the goodness of supreme spirit values. And God the Supreme will, in the eternal future, synthesize these manifold finite diversities into one experientially meaningful whole, even as they are now existentially united on absolute levels in the Paradise Trinity.

(1305.6) 118:10.11 The love of the Father operates directly in the heart of the individual, independent of the actions or reactions of all other individuals; the relationship is personal — man and God. The impersonal presence of Deity (Almighty Supreme and Paradise Trinity) manifests regard for the whole, not for the part. The providence of the overcontrol of Supremacy becomes increasingly apparent as the successive parts of the universe progress in the attainment of finite destinies. As the systems, constellations, universes, and superuniverses become settled in light and life, the Supreme increasingly emerges as the meaningful correlator of all that is transpiring, while the Ultimate gradually emerges as the transcendental unifier of all things.


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Bart wrote:
I can only say that I am not absolutely sure of God's unselfish motive.. :)


Sorry to hear that. If he is selfish, why does he give himself away, divest himself of himself and bestow himself on his Creators and creatures? That sounds pretty unselfish to me.

Quote:
10.1.2 The Universal Father all along has divested himself of every part of himself that was bestowable on any other Creator or creature. He has delegated to his divine Sons and their associated intelligences every power and all authority that could be delegated. He has actually transferred to his Sovereign Sons, in their respective universes, every prerogative of administrative authority that was transferable. In the affairs of a local universe, he has made each Sovereign Creator Son just as perfect, competent, and authoritative as is the Eternal Son in the original and central universe. He has given away, actually bestowed, with the dignity and sanctity of personality possession, all of himself and all of his attributes, everything he possibly could divest himself of, in every way, in every age, in every place, and to every person, and in every universe except that of his central indwelling.


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