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Should the Urantia Papers be thoroughly and extensively studied, dissected, analyzed for meaning, parsed, discussed and debated?

I am of the opinion that the Papers should simply be read, perhaps over and over again, for spiritual flavor as we experience life and progressively appreciate the practice of the presence of our TA.

What do you all think of this question?


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I think it a most peculiar position to post AT a study group site for students of the Papers. You do as you wish as will we all. Well....back to my studies and my friends here who study as well. See ya later Manny. Since discussion is a form of study, I guess you must be done here?

:wink: :roll: :idea: 8)


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You make a good and interesting point Louis. (reading between the lines a little).

The emphasis on being "dissected" and "analyzed" as a purely intellectual exercise seems a little counter to how the revelators seem to direct or inspire us.
It seems like we're instigated to fully use all intellectual capabilities at our disposal and even to develop them. But the culminating point has to be to continuously arrive at cosmological insights that can or do trigger decisions. To energize our budding souls enough that we begin to feel their presence and reality.


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Greetings,

We're told that truth suffers from being dismembered, not facts. Dismemberment means being isolated from the elements of reality (facts, ideas, relations). But truth is not facts. Facts are part of intellectual knowledge; truth is a supermaterial experience of the soul. Knowledge is a material demonstration of the fact-discerning mind and is meant to be studied and analyzed. Truth is a higher mind-spirit level of universe reality which suffers when overly analyzed (see quote below). The Fifth Epochal Revelation contains information that leads to both truth and knowledge. The facts we read with the material mind are fair material for study. That which we read that inspires the soul to experience truth is purely a personal matter and usually shows up on the forum of personal spiritual experiences. But even those experiences can influence how the material mind thinks about facts, knowledge, ideas. Truth cannot be isolated from the other elements of reality. So, in short, it's essential to think deeply, to share our material thoughts, and even share our experiences with truth.

Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed. 195:5:2


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We are taught that we are students in study throughout all time and space and beyond. Does not this most important work of facts regarding our source and destiny and how the cosmos works not worthy of study?

I would agree that all new readers should do a read through (or two) to discover that which excites them and engages them the most....to study!!

8)


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Brad, what happened to your thought on that one cannot learn if one does not teach? It suddenly disappeared from my screen.

Were you reminded of that line from Annie Hall? "Those that can't do, teach. And those that cannot teach, teach gym."


Another question comes to mind regarding Truth and facts. Can the TA impart facts to their human of indwelling as they impart Truth?

Can facts be auto-revealed?


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Thought it more appropriate to post quotes instead:

25:4.12 (279.13) Those mortals and midwayers who serve transiently with the advisers are chosen for such work because of their expertness in the concept of universal law and supreme justice. As you journey toward your Paradise goal, constantly acquiring added knowledge and enhanced skill, you are continuously afforded the opportunity to give out to others the wisdom and experience you have already accumulated; all the way in to Havona you enact the role of a pupil-teacher. You will work your way through the ascending levels of this vast experiential university by imparting to those just below you the new-found knowledge of your advancing career. In the universal regime you are not reckoned as having possessed yourself of knowledge and truth until you have demonstrated your ability and your willingness to impart this knowledge and truth to others.

Me: Indeed, the Prince and the Garden are "schools" primarily....great education centers. The entire ascension career is one of study, study, study.....serve, serve, serve......fun, fun, fun!!!

51:6.2 (586.6) On normal worlds the garden headquarters of the violet race becomes the second center of world culture and, jointly with the headquarters city of the Planetary Prince, sets the pace for the development of civilization. For centuries the city headquarters schools of the Planetary Prince and the garden schools of Adam and Eve are contemporary. They are usually not very far apart, and they work together in harmonious co-operation.

51:6.3 (587.1) Think what it would mean on your world if somewhere in the Levant there were a world center of civilization, a great planetary university of culture, which had functioned uninterruptedly for 37,000 years. And again, pause to consider how the moral authority of even such an ancient center would be reinforced were there situated not far-distant still another and older headquarters of celestial ministry whose traditions would exert a cumulative force of 500,000 years of integrated evolutionary influence. It is custom which eventually spreads the ideals of Eden to a whole world. *

51:6.4 (587.2) The schools of the Planetary Prince are primarily concerned with philosophy, religion, morals, and the higher intellectual and artistic achievements. The garden schools of Adam and Eve are usually devoted to practical arts, fundamental intellectual training, social culture, economic development, trade relations, physical efficiency, and civil government. Eventually these world centers amalgamate, but this actual affiliation sometimes does not occur until the times of the first Magisterial Son.

Me: Curiosity is given for good reason...those who seek to know more and understand better grow, prosper, and ascend in the universe career....there is much to learn.....and for those of normal mind, curiosity propels and compels us to seek out knowledge....it's an adventure for those who think.....it's only a burden to the lazy and self satisfied.

14:5.10 (159.6) Love of adventure, curiosity, and dread of monotony — these traits inherent in evolving human nature — were not put there just to aggravate and annoy you during your short sojourn on earth, but rather to suggest to you that death is only the beginning of an endless career of adventure, an everlasting life of anticipation, an eternal voyage of discovery.

14:5.11 (160.1) Curiosity — the spirit of investigation, the urge of discovery, the drive of exploration — is a part of the inborn and divine endowment of evolutionary space creatures. These natural impulses were not given you merely to be frustrated and repressed. True, these ambitious urges must frequently be restrained during your short life on earth, disappointment must be often experienced, but they are to be fully realized and gloriously gratified during the long ages to come.

Me: You suggest to repress the natural impulse to learn Manny. But do as you will....it is far too late to supress the study of the Papers.....teachers and scholars are among us and every student who is a good student also teaches, if only by the questions asked.

Let me ask again, what are you doing in a study group dedicated to the study of the Papers among students of those Papers if you truly feel as you claim by your proposition above? What motive might make someone come here if not to learn and share in the studies of this Revelation of the cosmos?

Is it not interesting enough? or important enough? Why is the study of this text an unworthy use of time?

Do those who study not also learn of and live by its teachings? Does learning prevent living and the applications of that learned?

What's up Manny? You've proclaimed before that there is no need for scholars or scholarship of the Papers and now there is no need to even study them. Sounds like a motive to me....and not a good one. But hey, do what you want and don't do what you don't want.....but a pilgrim progresses by learning or a pilgrim stands still.

The Papers say that epochal revelation is needed due to the limits of personal revelation specifically regarding facts - personal revelation is all about personal progress in the spirit while the epochal variety provides the factual details, context, etc. for how things are and relate and interact to make personal revelation more powerful and functional. I'll see if I can find that one for you too!

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:56 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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MannyC wrote:
Brad, what happened to your thought on that one cannot learn if one does not teach? It suddenly disappeared from my screen.

Were you reminded of that line from Annie Hall? "Those that can't do, teach. And those that cannot teach, teach gym."


Another question comes to mind regarding Truth and facts. Can the TA impart facts to their human of indwelling as they impart Truth?

Can facts be auto-revealed?


The TA has but one goal and it's not education, it's spiritualization and circle progress. Have you received any facts from yours Manny? There are those who claim such direct contact and others who give credit to the TA for intuition, insights, invention, etc. Based on my "study" of the Papers, I doubt that such is the business of our ministering spirits in mind as survival and fusion is their business!! But it would be interesting to study if you wish. I wonder why you ask questions - don't you know the answer or isn't the answer irrelevant? I mean, based on your proposition - what does it matter? Who cares? (tongue firmly in cheek :roll: )

101:4.5 (1109.6) Truth may be but relatively inspired, even though revelation is invariably a spiritual phenomenon. While statements with reference to cosmology are never inspired, such revelations are of immense value in that they at least transiently clarify knowledge by:


101:4.6 (1109.7) 1. The reduction of confusion by the authoritative elimination of error.

101:4.7 (1109.8) 2. The co-ordination of known or about-to-be-known facts and observations.

101:4.8 (1110.1) 3. The restoration of important bits of lost knowledge concerning epochal transactions in the distant past.

101:4.9 (1110.2) 4. The supplying of information which will fill in vital missing gaps in otherwise earned knowledge.

101:4.10 (1110.3) 5. Presenting cosmic data in such a manner as to illuminate the spiritual teachings contained in the accompanying revelation.


Why study such a text?????? Really???!!!!

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
I wonder why you ask questions - don't you know the answer or isn't the answer irrelevant?


Perhaps I have no right to ask questions or retain an opinion, Brad. Perhaps I am a student of a lesser god.

As a scholar of TUB, Brad, I would kindly ask you to teach me the meaning of the following quotes, please.

155:6.9 The religions of authority can only divide men and set them in conscientious array against each other; the religion of the spirit will progressively draw men together and cause them to become understandingly sympathetic with one another. The religions of authority require of men uniformity in belief, but this is impossible of realization in the present state of the world. The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience—uniformity of destiny—making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The religions of authority crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration.

182:1.8 Jesus prayed for unity among his followers, but he did not desire uniformity. Sin creates a dead level of evil inertia, but righteousness nourishes the creative spirit of individual experience in the living realities of eternal truth and in the progressive communion of the divine spirits of the Father and the Son. In the spiritual fellowship of the believer-son with the divine Father there can never be doctrinal finality and sectarian superiority of group consciousness.


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MannyC wrote:
Can the TA impart facts to their human of indwelling as they impart Truth? Can facts be auto-revealed?


I'd have to say most definitely yes. Because it apparently had some important morontial meaning, I knew with absolute certainty as a 7 year old, that Adam and Eve were not of terrestrial or human origin. And that they possessed an enormously enhanced capability to experience spiritual perception that had a biological basis. And that Eve had a faulty relationship that resulted in the collapse of both the cultural and biological potentials in Adam and Eve's presence on this planet. That was prior to ever having discussed the events seriously with another person. I also 'knew' that that knowledge came directly from the TA.


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Manny - You call me scholar...I make no such claim. I cannot say what the quote "means" except what it means to me - here and now (as opposed to there and then) - but not what it means to you Manny. I find the book and its text means different things to different students and even different things or more things to the same reader over time and experience with each reading.

There is nothing said however, according to my understanding, about the study and sharing of the Papers or any other text where no authority resides and no creeds or dogmas offered. Those who study, whether on their own or in groups, have no uniformity in beliefs or any need for agreement in "meanings" of that studied together in this gift of fact and truth. It means nothing if such meaning is not personal and experiential. The UB says what it says....and doesn't say what it does not. Now to learn together and to teach one another is a grand form of unity that serves all who share only sincerity and the Papers in their studies.

There is much to learn and, we are taught, we will be learning and teaching for our entire ascension career from here to Havona - as fellow students and student teachers - the pattern is provided in the UB and is illustrated by the examples of prior epochs. For some of us who have come to believe the UB is what it claims itself to be, we come to appreciate the importance of such a gift not only to ourselves but to the world of truthseekers and God believers - it becomes a sharing as well as a seeking to understand. For other students, the UB is also light for personal progress in truthseeking discovered as well, and naturally many questions arise which are brought to other students for sharing and research into the text for greater activation and realization in each student's life - this is defined and stated in the Guidelines posted for this study group.

Personally, I find the text you posted as irrelevant to the question you pose here and also to the discussion thus far. So, it obviously means something to you that it does not mean to me. But perhaps you would share your take on its meaning and I might learn thereby?

:wink: 8)


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Greetings,

Knowledge is an adjutant level function. The Adjuster imparts truth which is a soul function. The adjutant material mind discovers knowledge. The soul discovers truth. Truth is an experience whereas knowledge is not.

130:4.10 Knowledge is the sphere of the material or fact-discerning mind. Truth is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect that is conscious of knowing God. Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul, the progressing self. Knowledge is a function of the nonspiritual level; truth is a phase of the mind-spirit level of the universes. The eye of the material mind perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized intellect discerns a world of true values. These two views, synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of progressive personal experience.

When people arrive at a philosophy that seems true to them, such as Riktare's,it's not always the result of the Adjuster contact. It could be a function of the spirit of wisdom, an adjutant. Logic and reason can arrive at wise interpretations.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Rexford, you may right in that the factual knowledge portion flowed, in terms of contact, from adjuster to adjutant to human mind. But that the first source and driver was the adjuster, and that any questions of the human mind were to be directed back to the adjuster is 100% clear to this struggling mortal. :)

But there's also the issue that the angels work in such beautiful and complimentary partnership with adjusters, that it may be impossible for a human to completely separate each of their efforts.


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Greetings Riktare,

I don't think the Adjusters make contact with the adjutant mind. They contact the soul, the supermind. But I agree, it's not easy to separate the various spiritual influences in the mind, which is why we're warned against attributing things to the Adjuster. Of course such things can't be proved or disproved, so if that's what you believe it is entirely your business. I just wanted to point out another possibility.

Thanks,
Rex


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fanofVan wrote:
I think it a most peculiar position to post AT a study group site for students of the Papers. You do as you wish as will we all. Well....back to my studies and my friends here who study as well. See ya later Manny. Since discussion is a form of study, I guess you must be done here?

:wink: :roll: :idea: 8)


I offered a question under "Questions and Answers". I offered an opinion. Then you wrote this. I interpret this as an invitation to leave the forum and never come back.


fanofVan wrote:
Manny - You call me scholar...I make no such claim. I cannot say what the quote "means" except what it means to me - here and now (as opposed to there and then) - but not what it means to you Manny. I find the book and its text means different things to different students and even different things or more things to the same reader over time and experience with each reading.


Then why is my opinion so offensive to you? Perhaps tolerance of opposing view is an important lesson for all.

Me here: You write here on this forum as one who is a student of TUB with in depth knowledge. You are interested in the study of TUB and pursue it with fervor. Sounds like a scholar to me.


fanofVan wrote:
There is nothing said however, according to my understanding, about the study and sharing of the Papers or any other text where no authority resides and no creeds or dogmas offered. Those who study, whether on their own or in groups, have no uniformity in beliefs or any need for agreement in "meanings" of that studied together in this gift of fact and truth. It means nothing if such meaning is not personal and experiential. The UB says what it says....and doesn't say what it does not. Now to learn together and to teach one another is a grand form of unity that serves all who share only sincerity and the Papers in their studies.


Great! Perhaps I can teach you how to deal with irritating people that have irritating opinions.


fanofVan wrote:
Personally, I find the text you posted as irrelevant to the question you pose here and also to the discussion thus far. So, it obviously means something to you that it does not mean to me. But perhaps you would share your take on its meaning and I might learn thereby?


The text I posted is relevant to your response to the question I posed. I doubt that you really want to learn anything from me. Perhaps your tongue is permanently pressed to your cheek. I question your sincerity.


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